The landmark townhouse with the romanesque windows at 208 Lenox (between 120th and 121st Street) just recently got a face lift. The last photo shows the shell as it was this time last year and one can see that the rusted cornice, brickwork and ornaments have seen better days. Scaffolding has been up in front of the building for most of the year and now all that has come down to show a fresh new start for the Mount Morris Park Historic District landmark. The middle photo shows repointed bricks, scrubbed terracotta ornaments and a cornice that has been restored with a fresh new coat of high gloss paint. The only thing missing is the stamped metal pediment detail (a similar one can be seen to the building to the left) which probably has to be manufactured to specifications. DOB records indicate the recent facade permits and a job filing from 2009 describes the interior work as changing the use from SRO and gut rehabiltation of the interior. It's definitely gutted at this point but the front looks spot on. Photos by Ulysses
Beautiful exterior. One by one these buildings are being renovated to their former glory. Can't wait to see this one when it is done. Lenox really is becoming one of the finest avenues in the city.
ReplyDelete"Lenox really is becoming one of the finest avenues in the city".
ReplyDelete_
Oh, you mean Malcolm X, right?
I'm all for supporting Harlem, but this is ridiculous. A couple of brief segments provide nice film/tv sets, however from 110th to 116th, the Projects and Sec 8 Housing has pretty much stopped any gentrification whatsoever. Other than a tiny Mexican restaurant and a tiny tattoo shop that strip remains virtually unchanged in the last 20+ years on both sides of Lenox. 116th to 125th has too many churches which due to the kooky liquor law in Harlem has truncated a lot of "would be development". 125th to 145th is nothing special to write home about. That's all of Lenox.
How in the hell is Lenox becoming one of the finest Avenues in New York City? Most Harlemites know 8th Ave has far far blown away Lenox on every parameter of gentrification due to not being handcuffed by schools and churches and liquor laws.
Lots of crime happens on Lenox, with 124th to 125th on Lenox being a major epicenters of riff raff, 129th and Lenox is a major crime point as well. Lenox is incredibly dirty most of the time, no where near as clean as 7th and 8th Ave.
As far as amenities go, it's pretty much barren. It runs for 2 miles and offers a half a dozen places to eat? Maybe less. There are stretches on hundreds of other avenues in NYC that offer more in half a block than Lenox does over 2 miles. And that's not just lower Manhattan, Washington Heights has blocks with more amenities and features than all of Lenox Ave.
Grounded perspective. There are a couple of short segments of Lenox, a couple of blocks that offer the TV/FILM industry nice settings, that's about it, and that in fact is an annoyance to most people that actually live here, not something we like!
Lenox Ave. is c-r-a-z-y with no shortage of drug addicts, bums, the "yuck" of the City from 110th to 148th, the entire length. 7th is far more serene, 8th is far far far more gentrified, much of Lenox is locked in time, and that's not a good thing (unless you need to film a movie with a 70's set or are a tourist, and can take your photo and can leave).
Yes Chris, it is fun to watch. And Actually no matter what your perspective - a lover of new/shiny/glass or someone who would love to keep the integrity of the old, Harlem is making many strides forward in all directions. I happen to share your love of the old and enjoy watching some of the run down townhouses take on a new life. Creative blessings to all of our 'positive' forces here.
ReplyDeleteEr, no, I mean Lenox. But, yeah, you are right, parts of it still have a ways to go. Last week some dude tried to take my cell phone. Still firmly believe though, that with each bit of renovation change will come.
ReplyDeleteI know MalcolmXYouMean sounds a bit extreme and I know Chris gets blasted for being too optimistic but in this particular discussion I am leaning towards Malcolm. I don't know much about Lenox above 125th but I do think that 110 to 116 is in poor shape. 116 to 125 has a better chance of gentrifying (sorry if people hate that word) than 110 to 116. About a year ago a plan for redeveloping the triangle at 110 fell through due to fraud. Does anyone know if there is anything else in the works?
ReplyDeleteYeah, must admit the area around 110th - 116th gets a bit dodgy at night. MalcolmXYouMean makes a few valid points, but I for one don't actually mind being "locked in time", from an aesthetic perspective anyway. I think Lenox/MalcomX is unique that way...it really does transport you back in time with the architecture.
ReplyDeleteWould love to see some more amenities along there and maybe that would get things going.
Is there a ton of Section 8 housing on Lenox below 125th?
There will probably be few things happening just below 125th street, at least in the near future, given the drug and other social services places and subsidized buildings there. These exist on the adjacent side streets as well. No doubt there will be new businesses, or ones that try, but projects involving middle class residence will be difficult. There is the odd brownstone or townhouse, but, what was it a poster said once ... ? It takes more than one building to make a village.
ReplyDeleteLenox above 125th Street is exactly as the poster describes.
FDB below 125th gentrified because of the lack of these residences and project complexes, and because of zoning changes. I am not necessarily anti-social-services, these are simply the facts. Moreover, there were always quite a few HDFC co-ops on Manhattan and Morningside, just west.
I for one am glad this blog does not recognize Malcolm X as the street name or Marcus Garvey as the park name. Why honor African American radicals of the past just because in the militant 70's some Harlem Blacks got the names changed? I also would not have a problem with doing away with Frederick Douglass and Adam Clayton Powell as street names. It's a different era today and going forward. There should be only 6th, 7th, and 8th Ave. and be done with it.
ReplyDeleteMy view is that 110-116 is probably not going to change much more ... like that strip of 9th avenue in Chelsea next to the projects ... but the larger neighborhood will generally feel nice.
ReplyDeleteI see no reason the corner of 125th and Lenox can't look a bit like the area around Bowery and Houston downtown. It won't look "posh" like say 77th and Madison, but sort of mixed and gritty with combination of more upscale retail and check cashing stores and bodegas. And that's fine with me ... I don't want the Upper East side ...
I do think the individual restorations of brownstones makes a difference. And there's a lot more than "the odd" brownstone ... these are rows and rows of near-complete brownstone blocks, with a fair amount of condos surrounding them. There is significant critical mass here. Yes, some of these brownstone are still SROs but look at all of the work permits.
Some of the posters here are either newcomers to Harlem or have real short memories.
ReplyDeleteIf somebody had told me in the 80's that Lenox would ever be in the shape that its in now i'd of laughed at them.
How long did it take for Alphabet City to become non scary?
Let have some perspective here.
Sorry ... I should have said "the larger neighborhood will feel NICER over time."
ReplyDeleteReynolds93, I have spoken to several older people who have lived in Harlem for decades and they use the original 7th for ACP and 8th for FDB. I remember one older woman said a jumble of names and then just threw up her hands and said "I call it 7th avenue!"
ReplyDeleteWell I live right around the corner-ish from here and am thrilled to see these gorgeous buildings getting a new lease on life. Lenox between 116 and 125 could be a grand boulevard. Only 9 blocks but I'll take it.
ReplyDeleteBtw, Reynolds, the park IS Marcus Garvey Park. And everyone calls it Seventh Avenue and 8th Avenue. But always Lenox.
Nothing wrong with 70s militants. Power to the people, right on!
Chris, what happened with your cell phone? I don't wanna derail things, but did the guy get it? Were you physically assaulted? Where was it? You seem like such a nice guy, so I'm sorry to hear that!
ReplyDeleteThe corner of Bowery and Houston is not at all "mixed and gritty." Unless you mean the packaged version for the out-of-towners who expect some real NYC for their $4,000. in rent. And even that ...
ReplyDeleteIn fact, that corner was not in the situation of 125th and Lenox in my lifetime, most of which was spent two blocks away. The area was filled with restaurant supply stores, art studios, and dance practice studios. Residents were usually political radical types, dancers, artists.
There are no check-cashing places there, and there never was a bodega near the corner of Houston and Bowery in my lifetime. There was a vintage clothing store on Houston, great place. The area bodegas - even what we still call "the bum store," up several blocks on Bowery - are completely different. There is one to the west, at Mott, been there forever.
There were the welfare hotels, basically filled with older drunks, chronic alcoholics. They left you alone; shootings did not become a problem until crack hit the scene. It was dealt with and therefore short-lived in the end.
Vic Vega: In my opinion, some alphabet city areas are still a bit scary.
ReplyDeleteAvenue C in particular took a long time to change.
Lots of knowledgeable people on here who have been in Harlem a lot longer than. Guess I like to think a fresh pair of eyes can bring a new (albeit optimistic!) perspective on things. Faria, your comment on FDB makes sense, I wondered how they got things going so quickly. Were these all abandoned buildings before, or just empty lots? I guess the zoning really made things happen. Doug, nothing major man...thanks for the concern though. It was a not so subtle and unsuccessful attempt to swipe the phone out of my hand whilst I was walking down Lenox. Not a huge deal, I was just fast enough to pull my hand away. More surreal than anything else!
ReplyDeleteFaria-i'm sorry but you either have amnesia or are not being truthful. i grew up on the bowery and it was a million times worse than 125th is today. there were drug addicts, thieves, gang members and no one with a choice would have hung out around there unless you were a musician (but even then, you'd have to have been a drug addicted one) an artist or gay looking for a place to fit in when the rest of the country thought you were a deviant. there were NO police. and no one cared about anyone. the worst blocks of harlem today do not come close. though at that same time the worst blocks of harlem were even worse, if you can believe it. and i think the poster above referring to those on this board with short memories would back me up. lenox was a torn up war zone in those days. you would not catch some middle class white lady pushing her stroller around in those days unless she was on crack looking to turn a trick to support her habit.
ReplyDeleteHenry--and don't forget the Hell's Angels on E3rd. Phoebe's restaurant was ok though.
ReplyDeleteChris, I agree, Lenox is shaping up to be one of the finest Avenues in the city with its fabulous architecture and huge sidewalks the potential is starting to be realized, specifically below 125th. That up scaling is also nudging above 125th with the new Red Rooster and Chez Lucienne. This stretch of Lenox below 125th has great bones and these grand buildings are slowly being restored making some fabulous contagious blocks of wonderful architecture and more al fresco dining is appearing on the huge sidewalks. I think it is great the new persons like yourself can recognize the beauty in Lenox, some of the old timers cannot see beyond Harlem’s problems. Harlem is being defined by the new comers who can see the potential and are acting on it.
ReplyDeleteFaria - There are in fact, many many check cashing places within 1/3 a mile of Houston and Bowery and more than 10 drug treatment centers within 1/3 a mile as well (I used to volunteer in the area). I was describing the general feeling of Bowery and Houston today ... nice retail at the immediate corner but some fairly mixed stuff around it even today.
ReplyDeleteIf you were there 15 years ago - even 10 - the area felt much like 125th street and Lenox does today, and 15+ years ago, was much much worse. Nobody would have guessed a Whole Foods would be there today. There is a reason I bring up the comparison ...
Even in 2000, when most of manhattan was generally considered "safe," young 20 something college grads did not flock en masse to the Lower East Side - it certainly had nightlife but was very fringe - although they were starting to head to Alphabet City.
Sanou's Mum, the Hells angels still have their club house on 3rd
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with Henry and GreenGirl on crime on the Bowery. The Bowery that Faria is describing sound like early to mid 2000 and not 10+ years ago. Methadone clinics were everywhere and heroin a HUGE problem. Many blocks had used needles littering the sidewalks. Parks were called needle park. Cracked-out prostitutes walked around in broad daylight. Even the NYU dorms up by 12th street was prostitution central. At least 3 drug dealers would try to sell you something while traversing any particular block. Alfesco dining usually involved at least 2 or 3 homeless people standing over you at some point in time. Parked cars on the sidewalk most often than not had their windows smashed in since radio theft was an everyday occurrence. Car owners would put up cardboard signs on their windshields stating they had nothing in the car but those still got smashed up. Bodegas were everywhere. That area now has a Whole Foods. Ritzy hotels and restaurants only started happening around 2003-2005
ReplyDelete@westsider. I know. But haven't they mellowed a bit?
ReplyDeleteWell, I might as well weigh in here since I lived on 3rd St btwn 1st and 2nd Ave for 20 years (1988 - 2008). In the 80's the EV was considered a cool place to live - even if it seemed unsafe. There was always a bohemian element to the EV which acted as a counterweight to the crime and poverty. There were plenty of middle class reared young people mixed in with the dealers, addicts (some of whom were the middle class young people), poor and homeless. There were lots of abandoned lots just like up here but there was not the same density of poverty. The EV is of course now unrecognizable from its past and is only for college kids and the affluent (and some lucky rent stabilized tenants). But there is nothing up here that specifically reminds me of the EV and I don't think Harlem will develop that way. As for 125th St the only downtown comparison I can think of is what 14th St looked like in the 80's and 90's.
ReplyDeleteJen, I agree they are not exactly the same kind of place and they have different "attributes" going for them so to speak (one has a bohemian feel and is close to 'hot' downtown neighborhoods; the other has grand old architecture, parks, etc). As I recall to the more central part of the East Village (1st-3rd avenue) was a different story than Alphabet City and the true LES in the 1980s and 1990s ... no doubt it is much farther along the curve than Harlem.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of "structural poverty" - I have to disagree about the LES though. Compare 10002 to 10027 from the 2000 census - it's not really that different.
http://factfinder.census.gov
Everyone, I do not have a short memory, I said, "in my lifetime," which means from the 1970s ! I cannot comment on how things might have been before I was born.
ReplyDeleteI do definitely remember the car break-ins, especially at the end of Bleecker and the related streets. There is a famous photograph with the sign. People did sometimes go out with bats when they heard glass break.
But this was crack-era stuff. And yes, there would be a six-man deep sets of crack smokers outside the church. There were many community meetings regarding getting rid of those people, and they worked.
The places BoweryBoy describes were in the east village proper. You are collapsing a lot of actually different areas there. Tomkins Sq. Park is probably what you mean, and you are right. This is some distance from the corner in question, however, and it is a totally different area even now. A big clean-up began one evening, when hundreds (literally) of police passed under my window on foot wearing riot gear. They got serious after that and things changed a lot.
Only recently have I stopped hating the east village as a potential living area, junkies and litter and bad squatters (there were good ones) everywhere. Now it is overrun by drunken NYU'ers. Nobody saw it as a positive thing when students felt safe trampling through these neighborhoods. Only people from elsewhere did, because they had the perception that the general area was bad and dangerous, even in the 1980s and 1990s, when it was no worse than anywhere else.
I do not equate a "good area" with luxury hotels or restaurants. That is very recent on the Bowery. Crime went up on Bleecker, Elizabeth, etc. when they opened, because there was a perception of affluence.
There were never methadone clinics "everywhere." There were some on mid-Bowery, near the men's shelters, they are still there; some in the east village and on the lower east side - also still there, most of them. There was always a significant artist and writer and intellectual and "hippy" population in these areas, there was relatively little welfare housing, and this balanced things out.
From the mid-80s, the only bodegas around the area we discussed are the ones I mentioned, and one on Bleecker and Bowery - same family as the one on Houston.
That said, bodegas are not inherently bad.
I think my overall point was, though, as it has been before, that comparisons between the east village or lower east side and Harlem are not productive. The circumstances differ fundamentally. This does not mean that Harlem is hopeless, it means that it would be better to observe things here without mapping on models from other places.
Oh, and, the Hell's Angel's block was considered good and safe and clean, were you so inclined to live in that neighborhood - so people told me; I do not have firsthand knowledge of that. There was the yearly block party, but it was never dangerous except perhaps to rival bikers. I can tell you that it was always clean and orderly in appearance.
I agree with Jen, especially on the density of poverty and culture of poverty, I would add. This is the crux of things.
ReplyDeleteThe statistics do not matter because culture is something that exceeds numerical value. It is also the thing that creates reality.
Why is Lenox above 125th not a continuation of Lenox below 125th? Isn't it on 126th where Marcus will be opening up Red Rooster? Considering he is paying a hefty rental, doesn't that suggest that it is a hot spot for all kinds of retail? The central, central, central Harlem and NYC location of Lenox and 125th makes it one of the most attractive real estate sections of NY, hands down! Take metro north from Westchester and go have dinner on 125th and Lenox within 20 mins. Take express train from Midtown and be there in 10 mins. Take express train from downtown and be there in 25 mins. How can anyone put together an argument against Lenox Ave's gentrification?
ReplyDeleteEverytime this comparison of harlem gentrification starts with respect to another neighborhood spreads people forget that Harlem just cant gentrify that way. Sure, there is public housing and section 8 buildings around the rest of manhattan, but the reality is that Harlem is so dense with subsidized individuals, that it will be difficult to see the transformation that happened in the rest of manhattan. I know some people want to be rosey and optimistic, and I whole heartedly agree the shells along lenox have great potential as much of harlem does. But the issue along lenox below 116 is similar throughout spots of harlem and the pockets of renovation and improvement will eventually stall short of the overall potential of the neighborhood due to the lack of a plan to bring more of the neighborhood to market rate. Every brownstown renovated is a step towards pushing that tide, and every person who buys one of the hard to sell condos, is another step, but eventually we are going to have to stop laying a blind eye to tose things that inhibit real growth. They include drugs, section 8, street garbage, clinics, and halfway houses.
ReplyDeleteFaria,
ReplyDeleteFor the most part, a good section of NYC in the 70s was a sh*t hole. There are accounts from Vietnam vets who returned from Vietnam and described SoHo at the time as being a horrific war zone itself. You can't just justify it as being simply the crack era. NYC was a complete crack era up until the economic boom of the 90s which brought in a lot of money to Wall Street + Guiliani beefing up the police dept.
The problems of the EV and LES were produced in a very short period, perhaps a decade. No surprise they could be reversed rather quickly. The problems of Harlem were produced over the last 5 decades, that a monumental difference and why comparisons are baseless. The problems of Harlem are entrenched in generations, institutionalized from Government, pervasive from the schools, to the federal government, to the private sector. Harlem will never pervasively gentrify. How entrenched are the problems on many Indian Reservations? Gentrification will be spotty at best and moving to Harlem simply means living within entrenched poverty and problems for a very high percentage of the population.
ReplyDeleteHarlem is very fragile. Harlem can absorb and tolerate Black on Black crime. But if one White woman is (God forbid) raped or murdered, especially if she's a lovely blonde from a fine CT family going to school at CU, the stuff media likes to run with (runaway bride, aruba white woman, etc.) Harlem real estate will suffer. Harlem cannot absorb a horrific crime against a White person without it having significant repercussions on real estate. And if one Black Harlemite goes postal like the black guy did in CT yesterday and does 187 on a number of White people simply minding their own business, Harlem real estate will drop like a rock. It's critical that White people feel and are safe.
Watching Thread,
ReplyDeleteDo you not have any faith in black people? What would make you think they will simply rape a white blond woman? Your typical steroptype. Your comment was simply twisted.
Can we at least agree that Lenox itself has seen a great deal of progress since Magic Johnson opened his Starbucks in '99?
ReplyDelete@Faria: I can say that it seemed like it was a whole lot easier to get beat up in Alphabet City in '80 than it was in East Harlem during the same time.
But it was the in place to hang out back then, so kids took thier beatings and came back for more if my friends were any indication.:)
I managed to avoid being beaten up(mainly by steering clear of the place) So I don't have any cool stories.
Baccardi, I agree about Soho not being fancy in the 1970s. I remember some things.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, in the 1970s, as was the case in the East Village, there were already interesting artists and writers living in Soho - many.
The problems of the EV and LES were not the product of a short time span. They might actually be coincident, historically, with the current situation in Harlem - turn of the century.
Bacardi, I don't have faith in drug addicts of any color or angry people of any color, or wild youth. You've not seen any wild youth in Harlem?
ReplyDeleteIn Harlem, remember CU student Ming-Hui Yu? he was fleeing two muggers who were punching and kicking him after he refused to surrender his belongings, he was hit by a car in his attempt to flee and died from his injuries. (120th & Bway). Then there was John Broderick Hehman an NYU student he was chased into traffic after being attacked in Harlem. He was struck by a car at 125th St. and Park Ave and killed.
I just don't think this can happen to a White woman without wall to wall media spotlight on how safe is Harlem. Bad for real estate.
WatchingThread, I think hypothesizing about what may happen if a White woman is attacked in Harlem is about as pointless as hypothesizing about what will happen to the Financial District real estate market if it is hit by another attack. i.e. it is a waste of mental energy.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I can determine, enormous strides have been made in Harlem in the past decade and I am sure back then there were the doubters who said change would never come, people would never want to move to Harlem and it would always consist of burnt out shells. Would be curious to know what they think now.
Baccardi, the observations WatchingThread made about crime and the media are true. It is not right, and people do not like to hear it, but it is the truth.
ReplyDeleteI know for a fact that many shootings or attacks do not appear on the media landscape at all. Why ? Real estate values in Harlem. Too much money at stake. This is why I am critical of people being overly optimistic about things.
People here are talking about safety and crime of the EV and LES, right? And comparing the improvement of the EV and LES as a model for Harlem, right? The comparisons of Harlem to the EV and LES don't fit because Harlem is far more fragile than those areas and I was giving one example of how and the ramifications.
ReplyDeleteFor example, the dozens of wild youth that the NYPD allow to do whatever they want, whenever they want, on the Harlem streets. When will that practice end? The LES and EV did not have this behavior. Again, another example of how pervasive the problems are of Harlem. Sooner or later those kids are going to kill someone or themselves.
I meant the wild youth on Dirt Road Motorcycles. Also, the NYPD does MAJOR reclassification of crime to sweeten the stats.
ReplyDeleteWatchingThread, downtown, broadly speaking, people met and campaigned and demanded of the police. They were persistent and vocal in demanding of the police and city, and they supervised their children.
ReplyDeleteHere, people are very suspicious of police, and I have found that many are most interested in talking about police brutality - rather than ways to convince young people not to commit crimes or even just to stop littering, to study, to get part-time jobs, and so on.
Someone pointed out on another thread that in central Harlem, police do not want riots or similar so they let many things go. This has been our experience also. And then the law suits ... people have abused this here.
Speaking of the cycles, the other day, a (maybe) 13-year old, younger sister on the back, narrowly missed mowing me and an elderly woman over - St. Nicholas Terrace, right up the middle of the sidewalk. It is far worse just east on FDB and St. Nicholas.
I think we can all agree that Harlem has a huge problem - entrenched poverty. Short of forcing the poor to move en masse, which is barbaric, all that can happen is to increase middle class and working class density and hope that has a balancing effect over time.
ReplyDeleteBut the poverty that exists here, and all the abysmal statistics that come along with it, are replicated very quickly generation by generation and unfortunately show no signs of abating.
Chris, seriously. No one is saying Harlem has not made strides or being generally negative. What they are saying is that the Harlem can never be truly reach it's potential because it has limitations put on it by generational entrenchment of subsidized. You say nice things about the pioneers that have saved the ailing brownstowns and highlight the some remaining cultural establishments, as well as the local and individual new ones. But these advances are amazing, truly, in the face of the challenges Harlem faces. It is in no way the ghetto it used to be. And I would argue that the many areas of Harlem are more or less safe at all times. Yes a huge improvement, but it is a delicate situation. The government has created an entrenched sense of endowment and poverty in Harlem that is huge compared to the rest of manhattan in density. It fosters gangs, drugs, littering, and prostitution. This is what gets us a pioneer instead of a trader joes. This is why it's is hard to sell condos. If we want Harlem to keep cleaning up, it's inevitable these conditions will have to be addressed. Regardless of how far Harlem has come thus far.
ReplyDelete@ Faria: There's a REASON folk around here are suspicious of Police it doesn't take much to get labelled and treated like a perp.
ReplyDeleteIt's happened to me and I'm about as threatening as Al Roker. I can well imagine what I'd be in for if I actually looked tough.
Forget that code of the street stuff it is a very real possbilty that you can call the cops and get arrested(or worse) for the crime you are trying to report. Seen that happen too. That's reason enough not to call the Cops.
There have been occasional crimes against white people in Harlem in the last few years ... I think people oversell what would happen if one white woman was murdered. It's already happened ... at least to a couple white or Asian male students. Similar incidents have happened on the LES - remember that white woman killed by thugs randomly a few years ago? People didn't abandon the LES suddenly.
ReplyDeletePeople ignore statistics when it is convenient for them. I show a statistic that says in 2000 - when, as all poster acknowledge on this board, the LES had begun to gentrify - that in 10002:
- 25% of families and 29% of individuals were below poverty
- 55% were in the labor force
- average family income: 27,368
- high school graduates: 46.8%
- college graduates: 16.8%
In 2000, in the 10027 in harlem:
- 31% and 35 were below poverty
- 55% in the labor force, and 70% were high school graduates and 30% had bachelor's degrees
- average family income: 26,562
The so-called "structural poverty" differences should shake out in the statistics. Yes, Harlem was *slightly* higher ... but not dramatically.
In terms of housing projects, short of East Harlem between 96 and 116, which includes its super blocks that end on Lenox (a small sliver of central harlem), the density really is NOT greater than the Lower East Side in Central Harlem and West Harlem. Look at an NYCHA map people. Yes, there is section 8 housing and the like .. but there is in these neighborhoods too (and a whole lot - don't kid yourselves).
This is not to say that Harlem does not have its problems or that in 10 years the seedy sections will be gone. But to act like most of Central Harlem - the area between 5th and Mornginside South of 125th and the beautiful blocks between 125th and 135th bounded by roughly the same avenues can't generally be a nice area is silly. They are essentially kitty-corned by two massive housing projects which take up about 1/20 of a square mile each (1 cross town block by about 4 north/south blocks) in an area that is almost 1.5 square miles and have a sprinkling of *much* maller developments like the Randolph Houses. There will be sketchy streets, sure ... this probably won't change. I think West Harlem is similar.
It's also offensive to say things are cultural - this to me is a thinly veiled racial slur - when actually Harlem had MORE college and high grads than the LES a decade ago. I think people who say "structural poverty" that cannot be changed are giving up ... there are huge problems ... but things are changing and can change ... It is already hugely different than 1999 ...
@ Jackson
ReplyDeleteSafe? More or less at all times? As a woman, I can assure you that I would not walk around Harlem, even central Harlem at all times, and feel entirely safe. At least not the way I would in the east village or the LES.
@Vic Vega
If what you say is true, then we have a real problem. I believe the police are afraid of the neighborhood, for many of the reasons described above. It is so easy to make a labeling thing or a racial thing. The reality is that you see few cops on the streets. Those days are over. Rapid response. Which essentially means random street delinquency can run rampant with no real supervision until someone calls the cops or something major happens. Sounds to me like being a petty drug peddler on a Harlem street or a member of a bike gang is a pretty easy thing to get away with.
GreenGirl: "Cultural" is most often opposed to "essential," denoting social or habitual, i.e., choice-based ways of living rather than inherent, inevitable characteristics, such as those based on biological sex or race.
ReplyDeleteGood grief.
Harlem has come a very long way from just the mid to late 90's. The new arrivals (of all races) really have no sense of how it truly was, totally out of control. To this very day in Harlem it's common for a life long male Harlemite over the age of 55 or so to keep a shotgun or gun of some kind under his bed. Why? In his lifetime in Harlem it's only very recently that you could call, count on, or rely on the NYPD for anything. That was Harlem. You were on your own here. You went to a barbershop or diner and the owners kept baseball bats in the corners and guns under the counters to "keep the peace" within their establishment. That was Harlem. The remnants remain and you it when Grandmothers like Grandma Margaret Johnson (granddaughter of Bumpy Johnson), a lady confined to a motorized wheel chair was approached on a Friday afternoon, broad daylight, at Lenox Terrace in an attempted robbery by 2 would-be robbers. She pulled out her 357 Magnum and shot both of them. This just happened a few years ago, but the point remains, long time Harlemites carry knives and guns because Harlem was kind of like the Wild wild west. The change to this point is rather shocking.
ReplyDeleteVic Vega, I know the reasons for the suspicion, I have heard many sad stories, and so I was not being judgmental. I was merely pointing out that this attitude exists.
ReplyDeleteI do think it is something holding some of the neighborhoods back - not enough cooperation between residents and police given old hostilities.
Green Girl,
ReplyDeleteIf you are trying to say.... and let me get this straight, that the density of educated, non subsidized, employed peoples in Harlem is equivalent to any other part of the city?
To use a statistic that shows that another ghetto neighborhood back in 2000 had similar levels of education and class as harlem did is a little ridiculous for many reasons, excluding the quality of the data, and the mere fact that another poverty rich neighborhood would be expected to have similar data.
The reality is that those neighborhoods had fewer government endowed properties and when the neighborhoods became attractive, for whatever reason rents went up and classic gentrification happened.
Is anyone here telling me that over the next ten years rents are going to go up and if you cannot may market rate you have to move. No, you cannot.
And also, to even attempt to say that there is another neighborhood in Manhattan that has even close to the equivalent of combined subsidized housing in all its forms as Harlem has is really fooling themselves.
Faria - Thanks for the vocabularly lesson ...
ReplyDeleteMy point is that, yes, I do think there is a sliver of people in Harlem that are basically lazy and un-motivated - probably a portion of the 'welfare class' that others refer too ...
I just think people far overstate the extent to which this is true. It's like people assume that "most" people in Harlem are like this - when in fact, even a decade ago, the percentage of working people in Harlem was EQUAL to the LES, and the percentage of high school and college grads even higher.
There are wonderful, motivated people who lived all of their lives in Harlem, and through the worst of it. Even a decade ago, 55% of Harlemites of age were in the labor force (equal to the LES a decade ago)... 70% is the average in what others would consider "nice" neighborhoods in NYC. The 2010 census will be fascinating - this percentage has obviously gone up in Harlem since then.
To me, the real problem is that people simply accept the social problems and criminals in Harlem as normal or typical. They assume that everybody who isn't in a fancy condo on FDB or a "brownstone pioneer" is at best indifferent to littering, prostituion, drugs, and at worst assume everybody in afforable or low-income housing is a participant in this kind of behavior. So they see the situation as hopeless and "structural" rather than something that MOST people in the community would like the change.
watching thread brings up a very valid point ... THERE IS NO WAY packs of dirt bikes would be allowed to thunder through the streets of any other NY neighborhood. Wht do the ploice allow it?
ReplyDeleteGreen Girl and her family invested into Harlem and is determined to force her rationale and outlook of the future to be recognized as sound. Please don't ground her, burst her bubble, or awaken her delusion.
ReplyDeleteChiming In/Realist - Please just ignore statistics that show the LES was not so different 10 years ago by any measure - percent of people working, per capita income, percent of college grads. Harlem's structural poverty is very similar to the LES; it is also definitely structurally much higher than the UES or West Village.
ReplyDeleteFaria - Thanks for the vocabularly lesson.
My point is this - there are a lot of wonderful people who have been in Harlem long before the yuppies came and filled the condos on FDB or bought up brownstones. Even a decade ago, the percentage of working adults in 10027 in Harlem was 55% (compared to 70% in the UES or 55% in the LES) and nearly 1/3 of adults in Harlem had college degrees - long before the "gentrifcation" swept through.
I think people make a huge mistake to assume "most" people in Harlem are unemployed, lazy, part of a welfare class, etc. I think act like everybody except the newcomers is indifferent to crime, prostituion, littering, etc. So people tolerate bad behavior as normal. Yes, there are some structural issues. Yes, this will hinder Harlem and will prevent it from becoming "ultra prime" Manhattan; it will make it mixed and gritty for the forseable future and no doubt somehwat higher in crime.
But people's expectations are too low; there are plenty of people who want to see things cleaned up. This is the majority, not the minority.
Let's be civil to eachother on this board though. Peace ...
sorry for the double post, thought the earlier one wasn't there.
ReplyDeleteagain, peace, everybody ...
I did not write the post at 5:53pm. There may be a new "jen" on this thread but that post is from a new person. I would hope the person picks a different screen name so that we can all keep track of the conversation.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of talk on this site about Harlem never reaching its true "potential" because of public housing and entrenched poverty. What about Harlem's potential to be a neighborhood where rich and poor can co-exist? I am not a blind optimist, and as the owner of one of those expensive, "hard-to-sell" condos, I have a large stake in this, but Harlem does not have to become a rich enclave to make me feel good about my investment.
ReplyDeletePoverty does not, in and of itself, make people criminal. Poverty does not necessarily create litterers. Before there was a B.I.D., the streets outside my expensive Greenwich Village condo were littered and dirty. The area around Washington Square Park was and still is home to numerous drug dealers. Harlem has its problems, but Harlem has already been transformed from what it was in the crack-addled '80s. What is unlikely to happen is that all the low-income people who actually are able to find housing on the island of Manhattan will disappear, and I for one think that's a good thing.
I can only hope that some of the elitist, possibly racist chatter on this blog is the unintended result of unexamined belief systems. One person's "wild" youth is another person's rambunctious but normal teen.
What exactly is a middle class junkie? A couple of violent assaults that happened months and years apart do not a violent environment make. Fear of a black person does not make that person fearsome, but looking down on one's poor black neighbors will never make them your friends. Harlem is Harlem. It's probably better not to live here if you don't realize that it will require you to change as you try to change it.
This site will now switch to moderation mode to insure posts stay on topic. Please contact HarlemBespoke@gmail.com for any questions or suggestion.
ReplyDelete