We mentioned that the 17 foot wide, single family, 2,547 square foot landmark brownstone at 4 West 123rd Street went into contract within two months this past March and many were wondering how close the sale would be to the original asking price of $1.8 million. The house in the Mount Morris Park Historic District has been officially sold as of June 1st and public records reveal the final price at $1.65 million. Thoughts? Facade photo by Ulysses
Mt Morris Park is a dump, those are my thoughts....based on 2 months of observation in the morning. A dump with homeless, and or alcoholics and or druggies. I've lived immediately in the area for 12 years. It's getting worse! I started power walking in the morning 2 months ago and am shocked with how much of a magnet and haven it is to the homeless. The place is a dump.
ReplyDeleteAnony 12:50, get your e-body armor ready - you're about to get knives thrown your way. In 3 2 1..
ReplyDelete"Mt Morris Park is a dump, those are my thoughts". Then clearly you don't think much.
ReplyDelete"I've lived immediately in the area for 12 years. It's getting worse!"
Translation: "I didn't buy 12 years ago and I have regretted it ever since!"
Too funny.
I am going to call this guy "Ranter" since he likes to rant for 30 comments or more as an anon poster. First birth rates, then affordable housing then drugs everywhere. Everyone knows that the same person is posting over and over again.
ReplyDeleteIf you find it so, then please look elsewhere to live. Even in the regions of the fancy upper East side the homeless are there begging for money or sleeping in courtyards. Or maybe try the West side, oh wait, they are there also. The homeless problem is citywide.
ReplyDeleteLovely place coupled with a strong selling price. Another $1.5+ million sale for the neighborhood. Encouraging.
ReplyDeleteWelcome to New York. Every neighborhood had those things the only difference in harlem is people tend to be black.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the most desirable areas of Harlem.
Oldtimer, lets be honest, the Upper east and west compared to Harlem parks are miles apart as far as quality and cleanliness. And why does someone have to leave Harlem if they find the community not to standard. I suggest you move - If you feel complaining on this blog is unjustified. Why not suggest putting fire under the local precinct to increase patrol at the park?
ReplyDeleteHarlem has turned the corner. No amount of foreclosures, unsold condos, or homeless people can reverse that! So the anon poster who constantly bickers about Harlem needs to get a life...
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with the park? It is no worse than most other parks in the city (Tompkins Sq. Park anybody?). I run in it all the time. Plus, development of the brand new Amphitheater is already under way (the old is almost torn down) which will be a huge boon to the park w/ events, concerts etc.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I do not agree with the first poster that the place is a dump, in fact I believe it is a treasure trove of amazing buildings in an area with social problems. Hardly a dump by any measure. But I have a greater problem with people that are under the impression that there is just a single poster who identifies the drug and social problems of Harlem. Really? This is just not the case. This site allows people of the community to talk about how they feel and if you think everyone walks around Harlem and is drunk with optimism all the time you are not being realistic. Many people, and I mean many, are realistic about the challenges an want to talk about them.
ReplyDeleteIt's ridiculous how defensive the Mount Morris Crowd is on this blog. People do not allow for any contrary voice that perhaps is incongruent with their choice, their investment. Face it, Mt Morris Park is getting worse, despite the renovation taking place. It's a great place to buy drugs, they keep it (the park) stocked from the dealers and addicts that make home 1 block up and over on Lenox on 124th and Lenox....Doubt me? Talk to the local NYPD....they'll tell you to stay out of the park at dark, and not to return until mid-morning...and that's at your own risk.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:21
ReplyDeleteTo add to what you said, at the same time, "not everyone walks around Harlem and is drunk" and/or a homeless person. This is what this same person or two intends on portraying Harlem as. That is just not the case, no?
Anon 1:21 - well said.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:26 - stop trying to make a mountain out of molehill. Simply put- there’s too march garbage in the parks – it needs to be addressed. Solutions…
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:30,
ReplyDeleteStop trying to make Harlem of 2010 -- with a world class hotel being built on lenox & 125th, world class chef opening shop on lenox & 126th, condos going for well over 1 million, townhouses going for 2 mm -- into Harlem of 1990. It is just a different neighborhood. It's quite unfortunate you didn't anticipate this years ago and invest some money into the place. It isn't my fault.
Seriously, anon 1:34, you are grasping at straws. And 1:26, no not everyone is drunk or on drugs. In fact during the daylight there is often a mix of people of all color and class. I can only imagine in general how much of an improvement it is from even 5 years ago But once the sun sets, things def get a little dodgy. People who have invested there and live there come to their own conclusions as to why. I am sorry if you so not like the fact that people want to identify a problem, to elicit a solution, burying your head in the sand simply does no good.
ReplyDelete@1:34. People who invested a few years ago are sitting on properties that are worth considerably less than they paid. You woul have to have bought quite a while ago and endured even worse conditions for quite a long time to be sitting on anything that would give you equity. That is unless you got a sweetheart handout property from the city.
ReplyDelete1:34 -- You point to some important facts to keep in mind. The Harlem of 2010 is vastly better than 1990, and better than 2000. This shows that it can improve -- its improvement to date is objective fact. And there are many indications that it is continuing along this trajectory.
ReplyDeleteWe should of course acknowledge that there are issues present throughout NYC and throughout Manhattan -- that is the baseline. Is there still a gap between conditions in Harlem and conditions in the UES, or in (much of) the UWS? Yes, pretty clearly there is. But that gap has been closing over time.
Some will argue that there are structural issues that prevent the gap from closing completely. I won't argue with this either, but I think there are a number of positive feedback loops that will carry the process quite a bit further than it has gone already. Check back in 2020, 2030. There could well be similar, or even greater levels of change. The most important independent variable, I think, is actually the future competitiveness and vitality of NYC in general.
Will Harlem achieve "parity" with the UES any time soon? Well, no. A better near-term comparison would be the LES, which had at least as many issues and which has transformed itself quite significantly. And beyond the negatives we habitually point to, there are a number of positive structural factors that could make Harlem considerably more desirable than the LES in the very long term.
We shouldn't forget the degree of change that has taken place all around Manhattan -- including in places like the UWS, which certainly wasn't always so tony.
I also noticed that Mt. Morris Park has gotten worse in the past few months
ReplyDeleteThis isn't rocket science. You have to break up the quantity, distribution, and sheer concentration of subsidized housing in Harlem if you want to replicate the transition of the les or uws or Chelsea or east village. All of these places have public housing, but not like Harlem has. This condition will handicap it's growth and eventually come to a head.
ReplyDelete1:50 -- I think even people here who have a more positive attitude (in relation to yourself) also share your interest in solutions. I would suggest that we all try to focus on pragmatic solutions, and do so with a sense of proportion.
ReplyDeleteIn our discussions here, we should be able to find a balance between nihilistic and "rose-colored" assessments -- and to keep the assessments themselves to a minimum, in favor of pragmatism.
1:54 -- Pretty much everyone in the country who "invested a few years ago" are now "sitting on properties that are worth considerably less than they paid." The negative shift in real estate market fundamentals is not exactly a local phenomenon. And even if you are able to detect a greater amount of slack in Harlem valuations, that is still an epiphenomenon of a cyclical downturn that will tend to "punish" those areas that have seen the steepest rise within a short period.
As for the facts on the ground, there is a great deal of evidence supporting the conclusion that they have improved significantly, despite the state of the broader economy.
See above on pragmatism, and let's keep it there.
To the person who commented that it is the "same" poster being "negative" about Harlem: I did not post about Mt. Morris being a dump, but I have posted about some of the other problems this person mentioned. It is not one poster complaining again and again. It is a number of different people who are interested in engaging in honest discussions. I have encountered people who agree with me and I am not those posters. We are different posters.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the park and some other places have grown worse of late. I moved here in 2000, and I would not necessarily agree that things are so much better in general. Again, in some ways things are worse. There is a lot of cosmetics and talk going on but the deep problems still need addressing. But as long as people consume the cosmetics, they will not be addressed.
I can envision some sudden, mass moving-out of problem people, i.e., those who do not follow the rules. I would rather, first, help the problem people if possible. Try to educate. Work with them. There is little doubt in my mind that if this fails, there is money at stake and they will therefore be removed. This has happened in other areas, outside Harlem.
BTW, I AM the poster who continues to urge solutions and make suggestions for such. So I am not giving up.
Got to laugh at comments like 1:55pm. What are you doing, keeping some sort of log book? lol. You wouldn't have a farmer's market opening on weekends if it had become noticeable worse, which, it hasn't. Take it from somebody who jogs around the park on a daily basis and sees plenty of people making use of the dog run, play areas, pool etc.
ReplyDeleteNow, where I can't comment, and some of you are probably right, is what the place is like between dusk and dawn. Would I be hiking up to the fire watchtower at midnight? Probably not. Then again, I could name a few parks across Manhattan that I would probably avoid in the middle of the night.
Anons @ 1:50 and 1:54 are spot on. Two well balanced perspectives. Mt. Morris & Harlem will never be the UES. You are in the wrong part of town if that is what you are here for. I wouldn't even want it to be the UES, which is suffering from a commercial property crisis beyond that of Harlem right now.
I don't think anyone expressed that Harlem was faring worse than any other place. The poster was merely responding to the idea that the other poster was being negative because they had not invested in Harlem when it was worse than it is today. You could even say that where as other places have remained static as their house value dropped, at least harlemites can say that their neighborhood improved as prices dropped.
ReplyDeleteMy post was maybe a little harsh on 1:55pm...just to say, with additions like the renovated dog run (which is awesome btw) and farmers market, I haven't noticed any considerable difference in terms of park quality and all that.
ReplyDeleteAs one of the realistic posters that many think is all the same poster..... I agree Chris, both farmers markets are a great addition to Harlem, and so are some of the local cafe's, and well many of the buildings are just incredible.
ReplyDeleteI think part of the problem here is that there are two elements that are coexisting. The element that wants to bring harlem forward to have nice community stores, and farmers markets, and general cleanliness. I think there is a big portion of the old timers in harlem that benefit from the subsidies even like the increased general safety and improved appearance in Harlem that has happened over the past 10 years+
But the other element is that a very large portion of the fully subsidized tenants of Harlem do not subscribe to that idea, and were raised in a culture of drugs and littering. The reality is that a large population of harlem is more or less displaced. They congregate and loiter, they litter and sell drugs. They feel social pressure, and act out. But Harlem has been the cities subsidized center, so there is no where to go. People call the police and complain, so they get moved to another place where people do not complain as loudly.
We heard from one poster how there is a concentration of nefarious happening on 127th, which is new. You hear people complaining that marcus garvey is starting to bear the brunt. Do you honestly believe these people are making it up for some alterior motive?
We can call and complain all we want and people will move from one location to another, and then will blend into the stoop culture. Its a cycle that needs to be addressed somehow.
Randolph houses from another post is almost an ideal poster child for a possibility of change. Every one who has a vested interest in Harlem as a positive community should be very aware of what will happen to these buildings, this block.
One reason the Mt Morris Park may seem worse is because it is summer. I don't live near there but I live by Morningside Park and it has became a trash-strewn mess. And allowing people to bbq there is basically destroying the grass and plants.
ReplyDeleteIt will take a continuous and concentrated effort by middle and working class people (and all of us on this blog) to keep matters from getting worse: 311, 911, precinct and community board meetings, letters to council people, etc. It is not fun. I have done it in relation to a schoolyard problem and it is exhausting.
A growing middle class up here will obviously help but for now there is not quite that balance so it will be frustrating.
It is such a double edged sword 2:46 I remember that episode of mad men when don draper and his family went on a picnic in the park and when they got up to leave they just picked up their blanket and left their trash on the lawn. That was the fifties and the shot was very much intended to show a mid-centurey mentality.
ReplyDeleteI love seeing people on morningside park barbequeing with their families. Its shows family togetherness and shared use of the parks. But what is missing is the sense that this is shared use of the park, that we all pay our taxes to clean it up after people leave it in shambles.
In an effort to be pragmatic, how do we change this? How do we garner a sense of community in people who for whatever reasons sem not to have it?
First, I don't think mt. Morris park has gotten worse recentely. That said, there are social problems and structural problems that need to be adressed - I think the poster who said look at the LES makes a good comparison - it remains today a mixed neighborhood with a huge concentration of public housing.
ReplyDeleteTo those who say things have only been cleaned up cosmetically - this matters. It is the whole "broken window" theory (just google it). My point is the small things do matter. This means we need to do two things - one, applaud every cleaned up brownstone and corner of the park. It also means we still need to be vigilant about fighting to reduce litter, crime etc.
Frankly, 2:53, I don't know. Apparently one recent year there was no bbqing allowed in Morningside Park and people complied. If things get too trashed out this year maybe the Parks Dept will enact a new policy; maybe Friends of Morningside Park will talk with the Parks Dept and seek solutions. I was thinking about it recently and wondered if requiring bbq permits would be a reasonable approach.(The permits would be free or low cost) Also there would be only a finite number of designated spots - it could be first come, first serve or some kind of reserve system. The problem is that Morningside is one of the few parks that even allows bbqing so that is why it is being overrun.
ReplyDeleteIn an effort to be serious, 2:53, I am familiar with an ad campaign that was put together for the Texas DOT, which from what I understand was very successful over a long period. The tagline was "Don't Mess with Texas," and the idea was to instill a sense of cultural pride that would get people to rethink just chucking their fast food containers out their car window along the highway.
ReplyDeleteIf the city (or better yet some independent community group) could come up with a culturally attuned approach to getting across the same message, I could see that working a lot better than the typical city agency propaganda campaign, or police enforcement efforts.
I don't know what the formula would be, but it would have to be something like this. It would have to arouse a sense of pride. And it would absolutely have to connect with children. The way you make something like this work is by getting kids on board. Even before they grow into more responsible citizens, they can also exert a greater degree of influence on their parents' (and siblings') behavior than most anyone else.
2:43 -- Regarding the Randolph Houses on 2:43, can you provide additional information? What is the exact status of the buildings? And who will really make the decision? If we want to exert pressure, we all need to be well informed, and we need to know whom to pressure...
Randolph Houses on 114th, that is.
ReplyDeleteI think permitting is a great idea. Look, one of the reasons we love Harlem is the fact that there is a cultural and neighborhood feel to it. I can deal with trampled grass and flowers if garbage is not left behind. I think like the stoop culture, the bbq culture is also just an element of the hood you have to accept. But the parks department should issue permits and also fine those at the end of the day that leave their garbage behind.
ReplyDeleteWhen I don't like a particular TV channel, I would switch the channel or turn off the TV and I did the same as a renter when I lived with fake and uncultured individuals who would give you the fake smiles in other locations in Manhattan. Most of the comments that have made clearly show how bitter and angry some of you guys are, especially when someone took a risk and be rewarded. What I would do, is to the Upper Eastside or Tribecca. I am wondering if some of you are mentally challenged, jealous of the positive direction Harlem is going or purely looking for attention. Yes, we have had issues lately with quality of life in Manhattan, but I think we have come a long way. I must say, many of you sound like "Joe the Plumber" or the crazy goon at the S/E corner of Lenox & 123rd Street. By the way, some of the local organizations have always searched for volunteers to make the area a better place and one great example is the Mt. Morris Park Community Improvement Association (MMPCIA). I think their website is mmpcia.org.
ReplyDelete^^^^^^ Huh? ^^^^^^^
ReplyDeletePoster at 3:24: I think people are bitter and angry because they are tired of wading through litter and dealing with destructive behaviors. Not sure why anyone would be "jealous" of Harlem taking a positive direction. This does not quite make sense.
ReplyDeleteJust about everyone with whom I have worked in community programs, that is to say, those on the various forms of public assistance, shared a passive lifestyle. Checks come, city raises kids in school, city cleans my garbage. When I worked cleaning a certain lot one day, a guy repeatedly asked us, "Why you do that ? City do that." Then, he threw a Popeye's bag over the fence. He continued asking, finally becoming angry and belligerent. This is what you have at hand here.
How to change this ? I have said before that I am currently out of ideas. I do still involve myself in the community board / precinct thing that another poster mentioned, and like that person, I too have found this exhausting, mostly because not enough people involve themselves. So the burden increases for those of us who do bother. It takes many people, everyone complaining, to bring about change.
The situation at Morningside Park is completely unacceptable, as is the identical weekend situation at St. Nicholas Park.
Its never going to change. You can add coffee shops, targets, and an upscale hotel here and there, but until you address the deeply embedded social situation the city and state of new york has graciously bestowed up on harlem, you will be fighting an uphill battle.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the parks and especially the barbequeing:
ReplyDeleteI don't know how many of you go to the public pools in the city (Lasker is amazing) but the city has really tackled the issues that used to plague the pools.
No food, beverages (other than water), cellphones, electronics, jewelry, clothing (other than bathing suit and a white t-shirt) toys, or newspapers (they fly around in the wind) are allowed on the deck. Some people find these rules to be too strict but they have made the pools clean, safe, and enjoyable. People know they have to comply or they have to leave.
Rules need to be enforced in the parks in a similar way. Permits, Hours, Regulation of items permitted, etc.
Also the Parks Dept could demand a "carry out" or "bag out" policy for personal trash the way that some state and national parks do. They could even provide a big dumpster on weekends so that people just don't "bag out" to the nearest street.
Again, more than 55 million Americans have some kind of mental illness and we have a large percentage of them here in New York who should seek treatment.
ReplyDeleteWhat on earth are you talking about?! Are you trying to say that all the litterers are just mentally ill?
ReplyDeleteA neighborhood guy (decent one) confided to me that one of the anti-gentrification groups had told people: Littering makes things unpleasant for the outsiders, the gentrifiers, so if you do this it will drive them away.
ReplyDeleteTrue story: One evening I was walking on 125th street with my significant other, who made an annoyed comment to me about the garbage everywhere. A man just in front of us immediately turned and threw his fast food bag at our feet and looked at us threateningly.
Another: Before we moved to a better area, aforementioned significant other complained to the super about the prostitutes frequenting the apartment next door, and about the garbage out front. The super replied, "You wanna live in a white building. Well this ain't no white building."
Anon 3:24 - WTH are you talking about - and exactly what is your solution?!
ReplyDeleteEveryone has anecdotes but they rarely, if ever, explain the entirety of a situation. The bottom line is that if rules and regulations are enforced then people comply - especially if loss of benefits is a penalty for non-compliance. The problem now is that in some cases regulation is not in place and in others it is not enforced. If people know they have something to lose (benefits, parole violation, etc) they will comply.
ReplyDeleteLike an earlier poster said, excessive garbage is completely UNACCEPTABLE! Ideas mentioned should be brought up to our respective neighborhood associations, homeowners associations, condo boards, co-op boards, etc.
ReplyDeleteApparently it involves changing the channel.
ReplyDelete5:18 is spot on. The idea is that people who receive benefits and are a product of the cycle of subsidy feel they are untouchable. If their free ride is at risk, that may change. And working class people who are not being subsidized should be fined. The problem with this scenario is there is little police presence. Sure if you call enough, eventually they will come. But why are there not beat cops in the neighborhood at night. There simply needs to be more of a police presence around marcus garvy, around morningside. I hardly ever see police out and about in Harem at night.....
ReplyDeleteI don't mean to sound Draconian, but remove the privilege or create more regulations on park activities(supported by police). It’s totally out of control. My wife got into an argument with a lady that refused to stop smoking in the playground even though the sign clearly said, NO SMOKING.
ReplyDeleteGee, and I was simply going to say that the one drawback is that buses and cars tend to drive like bats outta hell round the SW corner of the park where this beautiful house is. Otherwise I think this house is a great bargain at the price.
ReplyDeleteLove the Park, love love love the pool. I don’t go in after dark, I wouldn’t go into Central Park after dark.
But obviously need to get eyes checked. I live in this neighbourhood, on one of the less desirable blocks and I have yet to see any of the great drama detailed above.
No kidding 5:25, I have the same drug dealers wandering up my street every night, sitting on stoops at all hours...... I have called the police, but I shouldn't have to. Either way, it does not change. The only time I see a cop is when they are leaving the station, which is ironically right by my block and heading somewhere. They never stop. Someone could be throwing bags of popeyes on the street and selling a dime bag, and they would not really think it would be worth their time.
ReplyDeleteAbout the littering problem, when I asked a sanitation officer why he did not ticket people right in front of him, he explained. Once he does that, the city must spend taxpayer money tracking the person down once they refuse to pay or even respond to the summons. And so on. It costs too much.
ReplyDeleteIt is the same for the subway fare evaders. They are not being stopped for that, exactly, the police are taking the opportunities and betting that the person in question engages in other, even worse, anti-social behaviors. Catching the person happens when they are caught fare-evading.
The police are much better around Morningside Park, that area. In the St. Nicholas area they are just trying to survive, and barely respond to even rather serious complaints - they know what is out there and I do not think they know what to do.
Still, if people consistently attend the monthly precinct meetings WITH FRIENDS, this will begin to change.
It was explained to us at the last 28th precinct meeting that there are no more beat cops. The city is shifting to "fast response units" or something like that. Several people at the meeting were dismayed to hear this but the D.I. said there was no money for beat cops anymore. This of course is another thing we should all complain about and write letters about...it never ends.
ReplyDeleteI sort of like Pete's notion about the importance of getting kids' on board to change the culture of littering. Maybe we enlist an army of kids that is required to go out each morning and clean up litter every morning. Could be good exercise in any event.
ReplyDeleteAlthough really, shouldn't we try to go to the source and eliminate the amount of garbage that we all produce? Having it all end up in a landfill isn't so much better. Maybe make stores pay extra taxes (that they pass on to customers) for all the disposable garbage generated so that people move towards reducing garbage and reusing materials.
@5:53 so if we cut back on the subsidizing and the welfare, maybe we could free up some cash to put some more cops back on the streets.
ReplyDeleteIf, as in the example above, the sanitation officer tickets someone who happens to be on public assistance for littering and their name is entered into a database and the person refuses to pay or even contest the ticket, then the city has every right to deduct the amount of the ticket from that person's ebt card or monthly subsidy. That would stop the littering. For those not on public assistance they might be made to pay up before license renewal, etc.
ReplyDelete