The house at 30 West 120th Street has been on the market since April and its big renovations also boast a big price. Basically on Mount Morris Park South (facing Marcus Garvey Park) the 18 foot wide, 5 bedrooms, 4 full and 2 half baths, 4668 square foot, apparently single family home also has 4 wood-burning fireplaces and HVAC system. So what what is this Mount Morris Park landmark aiming for? The initial asking is now at $3.45 million. There's a lot of great amenities just around the corner on Lenox and the express subways are steps away but is this house priced right? House photo by Ulysses
Great bathroom
ReplyDeleteLooks beautiful. This place will find the right buyer at the right price.
ReplyDeleteIsn't this place near the brownstone of a Wall Street Journal editor who just purchased a place in Mt Morris?
The price is hilarious, but very tasteful renovation.
ReplyDeleteThe asking price is too high. I think 2.75mm might be more reasonable, no?
ReplyDeleteMaybe a tad high, but certainly in the ball park. 3.2m is more on the money. I think that one thing people will have to start getting used to (on here) is seeing $700+ per sq. ft prices for high-end modernized brownstones in Harlem. The neighborhood is changing rapidly (as per the other threads on the proposed Hyatt hotel and various other developments along 125th). There are some bargains still out there, but I truly feel that the tide is turning. Exciting times are ahead.
ReplyDeleteI think $2.5MM - comparables would say less, but this is a great reno and prime location.
ReplyDeleteAre you kidding me - "a tad high"?! Find me any townhouse, prime Harlem, in the last year that sold for more than $2MM. I live and own Harlem, but this is Brooklyn Heights pricing.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:21,
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with you. I think 2.75 asking is more like it. Likely to sell from 2.25-2.5mm. Although the area is rapidly changing and becoming very exciting, this particular home is priced as though the area has already been transformed. We can't always cheer for the area blindly. We have to be realists, no? More work needs to be done and then it may sell for 3.5mm.
Having been inside ... I'd agree, yes, this is a very high-end renovation, and a tasteful one.
ReplyDeleteI do think facing the park is nice, and one day this will differentiate it.
But this house is not a large brownstone. It's 18 x 50 with no extension (and the extension is super useful because that's where bathrooms, etc. can go). So it's really 3600 feet, which means almost 1000 psf.
Sure, if this were 20 feet wide I think maybe it could get north of $2.5mm. I think the buyer will be closer to 2 than $2.5mm
its on mm park south. its kareem abdul jabar's home. wonderful reno but without original detail restoration not unique. sure hvac and fireplaces would cost 50k-75k to add to a property reno. but the most they will get for this is 2.25 mil. mark my words. the house next door is boarded up. that is one of the nicest blocks in harlem but to get anything close to the ask price you still need an elevator, original detail, and 20 feet.
ReplyDeleteTo add Anon 3:40, you'll also need better/more stores, schools, groceries, restaurants, less blight in immediate blocks to name a few. I'd bid $1.8MM ;-)
ReplyDeleteGreenGirl,
ReplyDeleteA little confused about the square footage. How did you come to that number? (not questioning it, just trying to understand a bit about how these things are listed).
For anon@3.27, I hate mindless cheerleading as much as much as the next person, however, what I also hate it when people grossly price down apartments.
Looking at past sales, yes, I think $700 sq. ft is reasonable.
Two recent sales, one on 136th st and the other on 139th st saw prices in the region of $500 sq. ft. For me, the amount of work done on this particular apartment and the location warrant an extra $150-200 per sq. ft. Just my opinion (oh, and not taking GreenGirl's sq. ft query into account!)
Chris,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on many occasions but not on this one. The asking price of this home will get you a top notch brownstone anywhere in brownstone Bklyn and many other parts of Manhattan. I understand that the home has been nicely renovated, however, the home is priced as if the area has already been transformed. Regardless of the quality of the reno, the width of the home, and the street in Harlem it's located, I don't think a home in Harlem will sell for over 3mm in this real estate market.
I'm a Harlem homeowner who has a stake in seeing this homes sell for 700-800 psf, although, I don't think we're being rational here.
Chris, are you are broker?! $700 per sq ft in Harlem in 2010 is grossly overpriced!! Let’s not take a few outliers to make a point. If you look at any of the quarterly or annual reports from Corcoran, Halstead, etc., average Townhouse pirce is in the neighborhood of $350 per sq ft. Now add $150-$200 for the renovation and the prime location. We are looking at $550 per sq ft and that's on the HIGH END – and still very exceptional price for Harlem. FYI, the building is 18.33 X 60.
ReplyDeleteChris -
ReplyDeleteThe math is simple: Each floor is 50 x 18, so 900 square feet, times 4. That's 3600 square feet. I am not sure what the other square feet number is, but it's not right. Maybe the house is a bit longer than 50 feet, but it's definitely 18 feet wide. You can't count the basement as square footage.
I do agree this price can get you a nice brownstone in Brooklyn, but not in Manhattan. The brownstones in Manhattan that aren't in Harlem selling for $3-4 million need significant renovations or have rent stabilized tenants or are just tiny. To get a renovated brownstone in Manhattan that's not in Harlem, I think $4 million is an absolute floor price.
Chris, I'm a homeowner as well as a business owner in Harlem - you've been smoking water if you think $700-$800 psf is rational. Clearly you purchased your home during the peak years......tsk tsk. Amenities improve 'hoods not wishful thinking.
ReplyDeletePoint taken...however, I still feel that Central Harlem is one of those unique areas that sees prices ranging from $200 sq. ft for an SRO to $700 sq. ft for an immaculate townhouse on the foot of Mount Morris Park. Is it really that crazy to see a place like this selling for $150-200 sq. ft more than an average looking one on 135th? Not an expert by any means, but I just feel that there are certain apartments close to Mount Morris park that, yes, if in exceptional condition, do warrant a higher price point.
ReplyDeleteFighting a losing battle here! We only bought our place 6 months ago...not quite the peak years ;) Maybe I am over estimating how much it actually costs to make an average apartment look spectacular (nice roof deck, appliances etc). If that is the case, then yes, I agree, it is over priced.
ReplyDeletePeople people people. This is REAL ESTATE. It's about reaching, looking for the greater fool to buy into your emotion based introductory narrative of the property and "value", blah blah blah. If a sucker can't be found in 6 months, the price will come back to earth. However suckers are born every day, this property will be sold with the standard charming language used for Mount Morris Park, hopefully those pesky Summer drummers won't be around the spoil a showing, the term "SOHA" will be tossed around separating it from Harlem, and what Harlem sale would not be complete without the assurance of the amenities to come? Why they're just around the corner!
ReplyDeletePlease, let the game be played, who knows, it works a heck of a lot of the time.
Not a broker, but sounds like I should be ;). Anyways...the anon comment who has renovations at $150-200 sq. ft put things into perspective.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Kareem is hoping that name recognition will boost it up a few mill.
ReplyDeleteNobody else is a little disappointed Kareem is leaving the neighborhood?!
ReplyDeleteCan somebody tell me how you find out how long a brownstone is? 50ft vs 60ft etc. Is there an official listing anywhere?
Anon @3:40 PM, what do you mean by 20ft? Trust me...I want to learn this stuff inside out.
If it's a 4 story home, I don't understand how the sqftage was determined. Shouldn't it be less than 4,000.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, this home will sell in the vicinity of 2.5mm. I just don't see anyone paying more than that in Harlem in an economy with substanstial problems ranging from housing to unemployment. As I've mentioned in earlier posts, I wish this home will sell for asking price because it will appreciate my home. But as my captain in the Navy liked to say, "I'm being a realist."
By 20 ft, anon means the width of the house. There's a saying that townhouses trade on width, and it's not wrong. The square footage is still important, but all things being equal, a 5 story brownstone that is 16 x 50 is worth less than a 4 story brownstone that is 20 x 50, even though both have 4000 square feet of space.
ReplyDeleteYou need to subtract 2 feet for the exterior walls so an 18 foot brownstone really only feels 16 feet wide. Add in the staircase and you can see why width is important. A wide brownstone also lets you put in side-by-side smaller rooms if you want.
Anyway, my feeling is that if this were 20 feet wide, it would sell a lot quicker. I still don't think it would get $3 million, but I think something over 20 feet wide might command a price a little over $2.5mm on a premium block in South Harlem.
Building and lot dimensions can be found on property shark or streeteasy. Note, the sq ft does not include cellar space. In this instance, its 18*60*4 = ~4,320
ReplyDeleteGreengirl,
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you that width is critical. It's something my wife says "she's happy" I've got. One can never go wrong with width.
GreenGirl..thanks for that update. Makes a lot more sense now. So, if I'm looking at a brownstone that has floor plan dimensions of say "18.1 x 16.0" and "18 x 25.9", would these be the dimensions of a 20 ft wide brownstone?
ReplyDeleteChris,
ReplyDeleteThe dimensions of a 20' brownstone will always be 20'X 50', 20'X52, 20' X 55, and so on. The width of the home will always be the first #, in this case 18'X 60'. If it was a 17' wide brownstone, it would be 17' X 60'.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteI misunderstood your question. Reading a floor plan that says 18' X 20 ' means that the home is wider than 18'.
Yes, the same things that apply to brownstones may apply to other things as well :) I knew I was asking for trouble.
ReplyDeleteChris, generally if the interior width is 18 feet the building width is probably 20. But I can't imagine a Real Estate broker selling a 20 foot brownstone and not having the "20 foot wide" in the first sentence of the description.
It's kind of like if you were marketing a classic 8 on say, 82nd and Fifth, you'd put "Fifth Avenue Classic 8" not "Upper East Side Classic 8" in the description.
Thanks...just looked up our building (well, two floors anyway), which is listed on Property Shark at 19ft x 50ft. Not too bad I guess. Would that put our two floors in the 1600 sq. ft range then?
ReplyDeletebest place to find out true size of a property, if it has a c of o, what it sold for, who owns it, and much more is the city's acris website which is free and so easy to use. by the way what does those "summer drummers" mean. please explain.
ReplyDeleteThe sellers and broker are delusional. More like 1.8-1.9M. This really doesn't help the rest of the homes on the market. Lay off that funny tobacco guys!
ReplyDelete700 dollars a square foot, seriously. I have no clue were you pulled that number from but no house has sold for that in the last year or for that matter ever. I would price this place at 2 million. Is it a good deal at that price? Not really but maybe in 10 years. The fact that this is a single family home really limits its market appeal. Most people can not get approved for a 3 million dollar loan and from that select few even less are willing to live in Harlem. It doesn't matter how great the restrooms are or if the kitchen is amazing.
ReplyDeleteCorey, come on. 2 million equates to roughly $450 sq. ft. Now that is equally delusional!
ReplyDeleteI’m a little late in joining the discussion, but the square footage of a New York City townhouse often cannot be reliably determined by simply multiplying the width by the length appearing on Property Shark or other similar sites. The data on those sites is often culled from NYC building department records, and those records are inconsistent in terms of how they reflect bays in front of a house and extensions in the back when presenting the overall length of the house. Often, the length includes a bay or an extension, even though the bay or extension does not run the full width of the house, so if you use the published length to determine the area of a floor you end up including space that isn't there. I suspect that the 60-foot length cited on Property Shark includes the irregular bay at the front of the building, so the actual square footage is probably somewhere south of 4,400.
ReplyDeleteThe building is 18.33 x 60 x 4 stories (according to Property Shark). That's about 4400 sq. ft.
ReplyDeleteBetter properties are selling for between $400 and $500 / sq ft. $700/sq. ft. would be an insane price to pay in this market. NOTHING is selling at those prices. If you look at the comps on Property Shark you might think a few are going for more, but it's because the square footage for those properties isn't calculated properly (it's calculated the old way which doesn't include the ground floor). Seriously, nothing is selling over $500/sq. ft. if you base the calculation off the actual square footage.
[To that point, the official square footage for this property is 3660 sq. ft. That means they're asking $943/sq. ft. though with real square footage of 4400 they're asking $784/sq. ft.]
Even if this property could command $500/sq. ft. we're talking about $2.2M. Given that it's a rising market it could go a little higher.
The asking price of $3.45M is a joke. If it sells in the next 6 months, it'll be for $2.5M or less. But it won't sell in 6 months - they're not coming down $1M that quickly. I think it'll be 18 months to 2 years before it sells. They'll come down a bit, and the market will go up a bit...
Interesting renovation if you like new. Remember you have a Corcoran broker living across the street, she paid 2.5M from another Harlem broker that is known for pushing the envelope so they are probably coming up with the funny money prices per sf. Why cant people just buy a house in Harlem because they want to live here and stop speculating about how much money they are going to make or be worth in 5 years.
ReplyDeletegood furniture and beautiful room.
ReplyDelete- resume