Check out the most talked about posts from last week and use this forum as an open thread. Once more, user names are a must if comments are to stay permanently on the site starting from the July 22nd posts. The first few comments here were transfered over from today's earlier conversation on the WA Condo thread. Above image is of the other Langston Hughe's house on East 127th Street. Photo by Ulysses.
Saturday, July 24, 2010
☞ READ: Last Week's Most Talked About Posts
Check out the most talked about posts from last week and use this forum as an open thread. Once more, user names are a must if comments are to stay permanently on the site starting from the July 22nd posts. The first few comments here were transfered over from today's earlier conversation on the WA Condo thread. Above image is of the other Langston Hughe's house on East 127th Street. Photo by Ulysses.
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I had a coworker who grew up in the Harlem projects and unsolicited offered me his assessment. He was one of three people he grew ip with that made it out of the projects unscathed, and his mother still lives there. When he goes to visit her he has to essentially go through a blockade of thugs to get into the building and is viewed as an outsider because he turned his back on the Harlem welfare state. He indicated that anyone who makes it out and becomes middle class gets as far away from those neighborhoods as possible. They do not go back to make change, they flee. He said that the volume of projects and subsidized housing across all of Harlem was so great and powerful that he knows, as many of the subsidized residents know, that it is not going to leave or change for a very long time. And that there is a essentially a pact between the subsidized residents to male the neighborhoods as anti gentrification as possible. He said it is encouraged to throw trash and walk the neighborhoods at night, generally be threatening. He indicted that the welfare residents know the police so nothing about it, because they are underfunded, are afraid of causing a race issue that would result in a riot or bad media. He said Harlem is not going to gentrify like the east village or the far west side until the housing is broken up and redistributed. The white middle class will always be a minority and not enough middle class people of color want to go back. He also describes it as a powder keg. Then I told him I lived in the neighborhood, and wanted to defend it, but was having difficulty really arguing his points.
ReplyDeleteMike's story is exactly my experience. In a few cases, the instigators of anti-gentrification told me the strategies personally. They frequently confided to me when I worked on various community projects with them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the powder keg assessment also. This comes from a body of firsthand experiences. For this reason we moved from central Harlem and we will NEVER live there again - we are now in so-called Manhattanville.
Mike has some excellent points.
ReplyDeleteOddly though, there are blocks and blocks of projects down on the lower lower east side. Near Pike Street. They go on forever. Yet they seem less violent and drug ridden
Uh oh. I think I'm off topic. Outta here.
Every neighborhood has projects, and the lower east side does have a big plot. The problem with Harlem is the mere quantity and the distribution. Harlem is commonly known a having easily the highest density in new York, but actually ranks in the top few in the country. They are essentially at each corner and sprinkled throughout. If it were simply a discussion about the grant houses or St nick or even the numerous buildings stacked up in the barrio, it might be mixed in. But the reality is for every project building, there are a couple more section 8, halfway houses etc. They are on every block. Everywhere. It is just not a scenario that easily allows the natural forces of gentrification.
ReplyDeletehttp://gis.nyc.gov/nycha/im/wmp.do;jsessionid=51E0D58CDAF40D3BC47801D081E4BEFB?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure the concentration of projects in Harlem - at least West of 5th avenue - is really any higher than Manhattan Valley or the LES/East Village.
Yes, there are some clinics and section 8 stuff and SROs. But "never" is a long time - and slowly the landlords that take section 8 vouchers or own SROs will realize there is a lot more $$$ in free market rentals/sales. You can't do this overnight of course.
Also remember the city is now reserving 1/2 of public housing vacancies for working families.
And on the "I knew people who grew up in Harlem and won't return" ... the same thing can be said of the LES or even the Upper West Side - seriously.
It's funny, I feel like this thread and blog is full of people who live in Harlem, but love to go on about what an awful investment it is, how it is full of projects and SROs and numerous other ills. I really don't get it. It is a home to many people who are very happy to live here. I grew up in London and the attitude here is just bizarre, especially when it comes to square feet and this strange need to offer advice to strangers about how dangerous it is.
ReplyDeleteFaria, good for you. I would actually much rather live in Central or South Harlem than 'Manhattanville'. I remember seeing a place up that way and it took me almost an hour to get there from Times Square on the good old 1 train. NEVER again. Just a personal opinion.
Mike, your comments would be funny if they were not so ridiculous. Your 'friend' from the projects. Laughable mate.
ReplyDeleteJust to say Mike, that I haven't had that experience with people from the projects (yes, I work with quite a few). Maybe some are worse than others...who knows.
ReplyDeleteChris, I am actually far closer to the express trains (A, D) since I moved west. I think it depends where you live. I would think hard about a move where I was reliant on the "good old 1," as you aptly put it, myself. I would need to get a bike to avoid going crazy.
ReplyDeleteAnd everyone ... there are numerous stories along the lines of Mike's. I have heard them, people who grew up here, worked their ways through university, and then moved to Brooklyn. Some of our friends thought we were crazy to move in with the garbage and projects. There was also a story (NYT ?) that included an observation about people growing up in Harlem, leaving, and not returning. This was cited as one of the problems for the area, that people do not make good and then return to contribute something.
Mike's prospective is his truth, But I know many others in Harlem. Especially 60 something women who quietly bought a place back in the height of the crisis and have nursed their place back to health. Going to work every day for twenty years, walking back home to Harlem. Taking a 30,000 investment into a brownstone worth a million.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem, with folks who feel they need to move to another area. But why forget where your roots are ? There are so many great things in Harlem too. If you promote the Harlem stereotype, but do nothing to help improve it..You are just adding to the problem !
Chris, are you trying to imply that I am lying? I swear I had that exact conversation this morning with a coworker. Yes, I work on Saturday and thought it was appropriate to post considering the string. I live how people think that being realistic and the issues we face is being negative. As if just accepting dysfunction should be a way of life. Believe it or not some people here want change and any to talk direct about the issues to facilitate that change. Telling someone thy are a wuas because they feel threatened at night with junkies o trying to say someone elses first hand experience living in the projects is fabricated really identifies that you are detached and judgemental to the perspective of some of your fellow harlemites.
ReplyDeleteMike, the wuss thing was just tongue-in-cheek. Of course there are problems, but I think sometimes people fail to forget that is NYC and not a suburb of New Jersey. Seriously. You walk around on the LES late at night and you are just as likely to run into a random guy like that. I am not detached at all, but come on, be realistic. People talk on here about fixing dysfunction and every ill that exists in Harlem, when in actuality they are part and parcel of living in NYC. NOT just Harlem.
ReplyDeleteNot implying you are lying. But at the same time, I know people who are extremely proud of where they came from (Harlem) and it isn't all doom and gloom.
On a different note, I hope some of you made it out to the Harlem street fair today on 124th. It was a great afternoon with a lot of different generations of Harlemites out and about.
ReplyDeleteThere is no comparison between the number of projects in Harlem and the number downtown. Especially west of 5th Avenue. No one disputes that there is a major concentration of projects in Harlem. The differences of opinion begin after that fact.
ReplyDeleteThe things that go on in Harlem are not necessary to being a part of New York.
Faria. Right. In the same vein, however, certain aspects of Harlem ARE common to other parts of Manhattan and I, for one, am tired of people painting Harlem as this disaster zone because of it. Meth clinics? Drop by 33rd & 8th. I can name two in that immediate area. Crazy guys yelling in the street at 11:00pm? LES, Hell's Kitchen, name your area. Of course, there are also neighborhoods like the UES where this sort of thing doesn't happen (I lived there for 8 years), but at the same time it was like living in a bubble and pretty damn boring.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't to say there aren't problems in Harlem. Anti-social behavior: littering, not picking up after a BBQ. I would love for better state schools. This stuff gets to me as much as the next person, but don't confuse problems in Harlem with problems that exist across the city.
Mike, someone is actually pulling your leg and pulling it hard, my friend. Those 'thugs' as you call them don't give a good damn about the gentrification. Like your 'friend' many of them are more concerned with 'getting out.' Believe me, as someone who grew up in the Lincoln Projects in East Harlem there is no, and I repeat no anti-gentrification conspiracy going on. People in the projects are not huddled in their little apartments thinking about how to stick-it-to the gentrifiers. The are thinking how to get on with their lives and that does not include YOU! or anyone like YOU! Trust me & believe the average project dweller doesn't even know you are there and could care less. Your friend has done you a great disservice and should stop that. I too go back to the Lincoln and visit family members and no one, not a single person makes me feel uncomfortable. The few that remember me along with the ones who know my family greet me with the greatest of welcome and respect. Yes, I imagine that the phalanx of thuggish looking guys congregated around the building look threatening but believe me they want nothing to do with you. Actually, if someone were to bother you, those same 'thugs' would gather 'round to help you out.
ReplyDeleteI do wish the so-called 'gentrifiers' would just live their lives, go to work and go back home to their glass & steel box condo's and don't worry about every one else. Do You!
Guys people might call "thuggish" have helped me out many times with things, including helping an injured hawk, so you are right about that.
ReplyDeleteBut Greg, the anti-gentrification stories are true. It is not exactly "thugs on the corner" planning things.
And people should not stay in their glass and steel boxes. This is one of the problems. They should interact in the neighborhood in which they have settled, otherwise it will eventually cease to be a neighborhood, as has happened in so many neighborhoods downtown. That's why we do not live where I am from (downtown), but where my significant other is from (Harlem). We do not live on the upper east side either ... must agree with Chris there. There was something missing that we found here. That was a sobering comparison.
Of course, interacting means listening, too ! Not just talking yourself, from your own perspective.
On a brighter note, I did go to the street fair and it was fun, met a lot of interesting people. The firehouse is a wonderful place.
>> There is no comparison between the number of projects in Harlem and the number downtown. Especially west of 5th Avenue. No one disputes that there is a major concentration of projects in Harlem. The differences of opinion begin after that fact.
ReplyDeleteYes, there is a major concentration of housing projects in Greater Harlem.
However, the "especially west of 5th avenue" totally discredits what you said. East Harlem has the greatest concentration of projects. If you had said "EVEN west of 5th avenue" we could discuss this.
Look at the map I posted and tell me you can really say with a straight face that all parts of Harlem (take West of 5th and South of 125th which seems to draw a lot of discussion) REALLY have more projects than the LES or far East Village or Manhattan Valley or Manhattanville. Harlem is a BIG area and I do not thing all parts are overwhelemed with housing projects.
Now yes, there is section 8 and affordable housing stuff too - but this is far less permanent as many landlords will eventually chose to cash in ...
But anyway - let's also stop assuming that everybody who lives in the projects is a thug. This is not true. Some of them are just honest working people who could not otherwise afford Manhattan.
What i find funny with this whole conversation line is that most of the condos focused around here are on FDB. are there some projects in the area, sure. but i believe the ones listed on 114th are the boarded up ones the city was supposed to sell.
ReplyDeletealso if you do a search the largest project close to the area are the ones close to the rental project and new whole foods on Columbus.
I think it is awful that everyone speaks so bad about projects such that the people living there are bad to live around. I for one hope adn feel that is not the case.
There are many projects on ACP and FDB. There are many more projects in central Harlem than downtown. For this reason, it is a mistake to consider Harlem an identical situation to the one, for instance, in the East Village, Lower East Side.
ReplyDeleteI have seen the maps, long ago and many times. And I know where everything is in any case.
A good portion of the section 8 housing is permanent. I thought this might have been covered in a different discussion. The landlords are social service organizations. They will not "cash in" because the terms of their deeds usually will not permit this. Not ever. Some of them have time limits but these are usually quite far in the future, and this does not mean that the organization will change anything. They are in the business of low-income and rehabilitative housing.
I've found new comers to Harlem don't want to swallow the reality of how they've invested in high density entrenched generational poverty immune from the cost of living (housing, food, medical). The rationale on how the density will shift is a pipe dream. Displacing the saturated poverty cannot happen. For every one new arrival to Harlem with a well paying job, a buyer or renter, there might be 50+ babies born in harlem, babies to young single mothers with bleak futures, no education, no male figure around, just a portfolio of entitlement programs (housing, food, & medical) to carry her babies cradle to grave. that's harlem too.
ReplyDeleteI've been park of the Harlem Kids group for 2 years now and I've never met a new comer to Harlem that bought an open market apartment, t-house, or b-stone that would have their children go to the local public school. They're proud to say the love Harlem, etc. but they ain't fools and know damn well that "love" ends at the point of marginalizing their own child with a real Harlem experience (public schools). Most families I know moved to Long Island or out to NJ once their eldest child started going to school, in that a house in a good school district is far cheaper than a mortgage in harlem + 1 or 2 kids in private school at $30K/yr + expenses. I don't blame them.
Most arguments on how Harlem can transition are made on theoretical models of others places, that's a mistake as we're dealing with an entire different foundation and set of facts here. They also fail to crunch the numbers. I see no sign to halting entrenched generational poverty and societal entitlement. You don't see moving vans in the projects.
While you guys keep talking about projects on this blog, there are some other major projects being started such as the Hyatt and Red Rooster. I wonder what kind of impact those projects will have to the community?
ReplyDeleteFaria and Mike sound like two identical broken record players.
Tiring reading this stuff. The projects in Harlem are no different to the projects anywhere else in the city. Not sure why, but on this blog it is as if people think the projects and SRO's are full of co-conspirators plotting 24/7 how to get the newbies out of town. Believe me, you are not that important in their lives.
ReplyDeleteFaria, glad you made it to the street fair :) It was a lovely event. You know what though? A lot of the church people who attended and helped make it a great event are the same people that live in the projects or Section 8 housing and want the best for the their children and family. It isn't as if the newcomers are the only ones that want to improve Harlem.
I'm in Harlem4Kids too. Actually a lot of people do send their kids to PS 180 and a bunch are starting PS 125 next year.
ReplyDeleteBut anyway do you think the familites in Brooklyn Heights, Mornginside Heights, or many parts of the UWS send their kids to public schools? Add to that Chelsea, Flatiron, East Village, LES etc. Really, outside of Tribeca, Murray Hill, West Village, and PARTS of the UWS, you can't count on public.
Families in South Harlem also have access to D3 G&T programs. Or they can do parochial schools (far cheaper than private schools). Or they price private schools tuition into their purchase - they say, my real estate costs are 1/2, and my real estate taxes are nothing, so I'm saying $x/year which can be used towards tuition.
I woud love to see better schools too - but let's not debate their has been progress (PS 180 and 125 as examples). And I wouldn't criticize anybody for not wanting to make a martyr of their own child.
Faria, you say newcomers (by which you mean the middle class, whites and blacks and other ethnicities) don't send their children to school in Harlem. Guess what, the majority of middle class people in NYC don't send their children to public schools, especially public high schools. There is almost defacto segregation in public schools these days - the opposite of what was intended. This is not just a Harlem problem although I agree that it definitely hurts the neighborhood in terms of building a diverse population since parents who buy here have to make school travel plans. The charter schools are hopefully helping the poor here in Harlem but middle class children are not going to these schools.
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt that you heard the "scare gentrifiers away" stories and I am sure some people probably want the middle class to go away but this is just anecdotal nonsense - it does make a good story though.
Statistically the demographics of greater Harlem and Central Harlem continues to change, so Sally your "for every one buyer...50 babies born to teenage mothers" calculation is probably incorrect.
And finally, maybe to further this discussion about projects we could talk about individual projects - Greg is the only person who spoke specifically about the Lincoln projects.
I can say that I walk through the King Towers when I go over to NYSC on 5th Ave and it is always clean and always peaceful. I am a petite white woman and have never even been given a second glance. I have walked through at various times of the day and evening and never felt unsafe or as if people wanted me to "get out." I find the only uncomfortable part of the walk over there is on a block or two of Lenox Ave itself. I have surmised that the rules regarding loitering around the King Towers is fairly strict so those so inclined have to go hang out on the avenue where they are more dispersed. Just my opinion.
Jen -Well said.
ReplyDeleteI have to say generally people in Harlem have been nothing but friendy - especially some of the old-timers. And I'm a tall blonde women so I look like a newcomer. When I lived downtown, it was much more rare for somebody to open doors for me when I was struggling with a stroller. In Harlem, I'm surprised how often people will offer to help me down the subway steps. These are often the types that so many call "unsavory" on this board. It's amazing how if you smile at people and look them in the eye, how nice they will be. I suppose if you eye every person who doesn't look "middle-class" with suspicion you may be treated differently.
Sure, I have gotten the occasional unfriendy comment - but I would say this is rare.
One more thing I wanted to add that I thought about since the school discussion came up: last year after hearing about Geoffrey Canada, I read a book called "Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America" by Paul Tough. Tough is a journalist who followed Canada around for two years in Harlem. It is heartbreaking to read but I learned so much about how public education works/doesn't work and the challenge of changing the system. I highly recommend it or you can even go to Amazon and just read the interviews. (This is just a recommendation - I am not connected in any way to HCZ or Amazon or the author.)
ReplyDeleteChris, I knew, as in work on projects and have actual friendships with, many of the people at the street fair. I know at least a few of the people who were there yesterday quite well. That's why I went - I knew about it a long time ago. They are angry about the problem people as well.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I know that some live in housing projects. I am not guessing, I know this for a fact. I have visited, many times, had tea, talked about something we are doing together. Improved knitting skills on one notable occasion. Advised the daughter on her scholarship essay and then college choices. Learned about bee-keeping. Got good advice about dealing with problem people in my profession. And so on.
Does anyone else have similar experiences ? Just wondering. If you do, you will know that condemning ALL housing projects or even section 8 people is, well, a mistake. I have said several times that judgments should be made on a case by case basis, so I agree with that comment. Not all entitlement housing is the same. And always bear in mind, to you "tear down the projects" types, that there are usually children involved.
The education question: The founder of the Children's Zone is a great guy and that is a good book about his project. I also recommend it. I did not comment on the education question but this might not be a simple evaluator for progress in Harlem. I think many New Yorkers send their children to private schools. Recently, I heard that one of the worst schools in the city is on Irving Place.
The hotel that came up. That area is surrounded with the most dire sorts of social service housing. If you think Whole Foods, one of the hypothesized tenants, is not doing research about that area, you are not thinking clearly. Does this mean it is doomed ? No. But it does mean that, given the investment people have in these development projects, or in any case what I have heard here, somebody had better start doing research, becoming informed about the FACTS, and then attend the relevant meetings. If you do not, the projects will not be begun or will fail.
I do not agree that things cannot change. Change will require actual involvement, however. For instance, there was a discussion about the Randolph Houses on 114th. A roar of protest ensued when I stated that the buildings are projects (a fact), not "padlocked former section 8 housing" as one poster stated. When I read that I thought, WOW. It is so easy to look that up. Why post something that is just wrong. I and a few others pointed out that it is not a matter of simply changing project status; it may not be something that can be changed, and even then, not easily. More roars of protest. In fact, though, right now, the city is deciding what to do with those buildings - meetings, hearings, etc. Right now. And if people show up and voice opinions, this will have an impact. Mentioning in passing on a blog that "there are those buildings and the city will probably turn them into something better," as someone did in a subsequent topic, is ineffective in the most fundamental sense. It is, essentially, staying in the glass and steel co-op one poster described.
It is my sense that every person who moves into an area with problems and who has the means - education, common sense, privileged background, whatever - is ethically bound to help improve the problem situations, in any way he or she can. Of course, people first need to be willing to see the problems and discuss them honestly.
faria said... >It is my sense that every person who moves into an area with problems is ethically bound to help improve the problem situations, in any way he or she can.
ReplyDelete^
OMFG. Give me a break. Please, this is plain old ridiculous!! To buy into this you have to accept a premise of entitlement of place for the problem afflicted in the most expensive city in America. Show me a Harlem social problem and I'll show you a situation where it's probably not sensible for the person to be dwelling in Manhattan (Harlem) in the first place.
Faria, the way I can improve the problem and situation is to rent a U-haul, tell 95% of these people (the welfare class) to load up their sh*t and move somewhere where the cost of living offers them half a chance to escape poverty. The Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama, anywhere but NYC.
Seriously, it's nonsensical to begin the discussion with a foundation of entitlement of place, Manhattan, to people with no skills, no motivation, and lots of problems. Why? It's expensive. If you have no shot of ever earning more than $75K/year, you need to leave Manhattan asap. You are better off earning $45K/year in the South.
Until people let go of this sense of entitlement of place, the problems will never be solved. People get priced out of Harlem every day and move to Yonkers, parts of Queens, all over the place, why have these sacred cows in this mega projects? How in the hell are they served by protecting from real life we all have to deal with?
It's a failed model, a bad lose lose model, to have these projects in an expensive city. Goodness gracious....I would love to live in Tribeca or the UES. Guess what, I CANNOT AFFORD IT! I am Black, I am sure Tribeca, the UES, Grammercy Park, can use the diversity I offer.
Please, I am sick and tired of the arguments of "culture" and "diversity" to make certain sacred cows immune from fiscal responsibility and real life, and have these mega projects suppressing gentrification. Lenox Ave at 110th and Lenox is the gate way to Harlem, and basically a commercial dead zone to 114th due to Mega Projects. Cry me a river and if we did what made sense, we'd have thousands of U-Hauls packing up all these people and sending them to Yonkers for crissakes. We'll still pay for their housing, food, and medical....we'll carry the financial burden of their entitlement asses...sure...no problem....but can we carry the freight of their collective asses from Yonkers and not Manhattan?
I think you misunderstood my position. I am far more to the side of pointing out the problems. I am not one of the "culture" and "diversity" types. This is the common position of the liberal new people and one that annoys me quite a bit at times.
ReplyDeleteI am a realist who gained firsthand experience, for better or worse. What I learned: The project thing is a very complex question and I do not know what to make of it in the direction of solution. They are filled with many destructive, anti-social people and that is a fact. They are also filled with children, and some people who might do better given a chance.
I think ignoring the reality and romanticizing is destructive, and I think simply saying, "tear down the projects !" is equally destructive. Attending meetings and voicing concerns and interests is constructive. How effective is it ? Who knows. Time will tell, if people do indeed find a way to be less defensive and to participate.
By the way, if you point out the facts about Lenox too often here, people will attack you.
Sick and tired, just to point out a fact as i have a friend who moved down to myrtle beach, you can not make a guess as to how earnings compares if you move. they will make less down there and still not be able to afford anything.
ReplyDeletethe bigger issue is that yes people earn more in NYC as the cost of living is higher. Lower the cost of living and then salaries would come down.
AS to how to fix it all, I really feel that peopel are making it out that Harlem has one class of people and that is it. But i really believe the article i read earlier this year from somewhere clearly state that African American is not the majority in Harlem. So what does that say for all the arguments that Harlem is a bad area to move?
It is not perfect and will not be perfect anytime in the next few years. But I really did not feel bad at least in the lower corridor where i will be moving. People are friendly, not talking about the people who moved ther, but the people who lived there.
And really i may get yelled at for this, but, since stores are not going to run up there, the local places will do well with people like me, who will run out and buy things and then cause them to earn more. So really is that a bad thing?
Unfortunately it seems every blog commentary in harlem bespoke gets down to a few telling us that we are crazy to move to harlem and we should stay out. That every corner has a project and we will all have some sort of violent crime against us.
Mike, your third paragraph manages to be both wrong and racist.
ReplyDeleteI'm just going to quietly go into the kitchen and feed the cats..
Mike, please do not let those alarmist posters try to make you feel bad. You will most likely be happy here. I also live in the southern part (112/FDB) and it's fine. A lot of us who post on this blog are discussing quality of life issues (trash, bbqing, loitering, etc) but for the most part those are not huge problems in the bigger scheme of things). There are some real estate freaks that comment here but just ignore them, and there are those who love to scare people with anecdotes but I think they are the minority.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think a lot of middle class people (like me) move here and see poverty on display much more than in other places we may have lived so it comes as a shock, creates a range of emotions, and then becomes a conundrum - hence the constant discussion. Poverty exists and any thoughtful person cannot be unaffected by that - but meanwhile you eat, sleep, shop, work, go to the park, etc. It is not perfect and it is not like other parts of Manhattan but it's interesting and has a lot going for it. And of course you are right in your observation that there is not just one class in existence up here - this blog is proof of that!
how is it racist? my point is that everyone is making it out that harlem is one race, and it is not.
ReplyDeleteI would happily and am happily moving into an area that has multiple races and i am not concerned. That is my point.
the racists are the ones telling me that i should not move to an area that they claim is almost all projects and section 8 housing.
If i came across as racist then i am sorry. I am just getting sick of people who make it out that harlem can not be lived in since there are african americans all around.
And the article i was quoting from was just to point out that the area has been changing for a while.
I dont think anyone is saying that you are or anyone else is crazy to move to Harlem. Its funny how people read into their own insecurities when they read the posts on this bog. Faria and many of the old time posters on this blog generally say realistic things. They may not be rosey, but they are honest. And we are saying them not only for the benefit of people contemplating moving to the neighborhood, but as a member of the cimmunity who wants to be proactive about it. Some on here feel defensive and say, its not that bad, or it will change over time, but others will say it has social problems, and the fate of the randolph houses is a hot button issue that people from the community must be vocal about now. I get both sides, but the reality is that the cheerleaders are hampering the possibility of progress. Faira makes great points. Some of us know people in the projects, and no, not all people in the projects are bad, but with that there is a notable amount of disfunction in the projects that creates a generational entrenchment. The best thing we as harlemites can do is get involved..... not just say crap like its better than it was 5 yers ago, and there might be a whole foods moving in, or the w hotel is going to open, and expect that this is going to turn around the social disfunction of Harlem.
ReplyDeletenot arguing the honesty. I just don't think extreme things like saying there is a conspiracy to stop gentrification is productive.
ReplyDeletemy thing is lets all be realistic, i also looked at buildings around the projects that are on 100th and up by Columbus Ave. That is a huge project, but people are not running away there either.
I guess the way i view it all is that hopefully everyone is civil.
I do not view Harlem with Rosey glasses, i realize that there are problems and look forward to hopefully working wiht the community as a whole.
It takes work to change social dysfunction, but it takes everyone to want to change it.
So no one has yet posted about specific projects. Adam and Faria, since you both claim to be knowledgeable can you help by discussing which projects you are familiar with and how they differ.
ReplyDeleteSomehow Jen I think you have asked too much of Faria & Adam.
ReplyDelete"...how they differ" from what ?
ReplyDeleteAdam, as my fellow "claimer," perhaps you are willing to help Jen. I do not like the snide tone and so I will not oblige here - perhaps another discussion. Clearly, now, it would not get anywhere and I do not have the time to waste.
"The racists are the ones telling me not to live here ..."
Cannot find the words to respond to that and more importantly, what informs it. Sanou's mum beat me to commenting on the first instance.
I am sure the rest of you know that discussions about anti-gentrification are intended to explain some viewpoints of the people living around you. In this way, you might better understand even the most difficult of them, and therefore communicate with them.
Greg, you were right!
ReplyDeleteJen and Greg, I think you should go to the Randolph houses, Whats left of them, Now. Right Now. Go there at 10:19 at night and talk with some of the folks out on the street. Right now. Ask them what their opinion is. I think you might be surprised that they won't be talking about the farmers market, W hotel opening up on FDB, or Lee Lee's Bakery.
ReplyDeleteAsk them how they feel about the gentrification of Harlem and what is happenig all around them with the 600 dollar per square foot apartments.
see i find this funny. when i was walking around i decided to shop at best yet market before heading back to washington heights where i currently live. I spoke to a couple different neighborhood people who have lived there forever and they were telling me how it was so nice that this market was now there.
ReplyDeleteI just think some of the comments here are shortsighted. no one is claiming by moving there we make it better, nor are people claiming that some people may like things how they were.
However you have to factor in that maybe just maybe some people like some of the things that come, such as a new place to shop for groceries.
point is nothing is perfect. I am sure as other areas changed you could find people who said that what was going on around them was awful.
But of course the responses will be harlem is different.
Harlemite - In at least two previous posts I was the person who gave the factual information regarding the Randolph Houses and their status. I only live two blocks away and have walked the block on several occasions, both day and night. I also spoke to one of the older residents who was displaced to the north side of the street. Additionally, I have attended meetings at the Wadleigh School which is on the block. I also posted the link to the article in the Columbia Spectator regarding the tenants anger at the city's failure to renovate the south side of the street. I was probably the person contributing the majority of specific information regarding the Randolph Houses, so please don't try to lecture me. I am not one of the ppsf people although you seem to be one invested in such discussions and also one who tends to speak in generalities and over-simplifications.
ReplyDeleteWhy do people always relate gentrification to blacks and whites on this blog? Alot of Harlem neiborhoods are majority Hispanic(East, Hamilton Heights) not black. You don't see Hispanics complaining about gentrification.
ReplyDeleteI was born on 5th avenue between 131st and 132nd street and attended elementary and JHS in Harlem. I was in the first graduating class of PS 133 and many of my school mates were from the Lincoln Projects. Iam recently retired and live in South Carolina. My grade school teachers made suvch an impact on my values and aspirations and I carry those impressions in my DNA. All of my relatives from NYC are deceased and my former neighbors have idspersed and would not know how to begin to find them. However, even for those of us who have left Harlem and benefitted from, it seems to be that we can lend our support to the local elementary schools to provide resources to create an environment of an expectation of achievement. Am I being naive to think that if the alumni of our elementary schools visited these kids on a regular basis (to role model for them )it would have an impact? I also have some painful memories of growing up in Harlem during the late 50's and seeing the decay due to the heavy infiltration of drugs which was mostly heroine. I would be interested to receive some feedback. DSG
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