For the past three years, the buildings at number 2192-2196 FDB/8th Avenue have been going through some major alterations which have included adding four more floors to two of them (top photo). Walking by this block between 118th and 119th Street, we noticed that the ground floor scaffolding was finally being removed and all looks finished at this point. The top levels are basically red-bricked with no details but the window are proportionate to the older buildings' original layout. We are assuming these are new condos but there's not much out there on the development. This adaptive reuse buildings are also reminiscent of the
Gateway Condos a bit further south but should not be confused with that yet-to-be-finished project. The closest subway to this location is the B,C at 116th Street. Photos by Ulysses.
For the past three years, the buildings at number 2192-2196 FDB/8th Avenue have been going through some major alterations which have included adding four more floors to two of them (top photo). Walking by this block between 118th and 119th Street, we noticed that the ground floor scaffolding was finally being removed and all looks finished at this point. The top levels are basically red-bricked with no details but the window are proportionate to the older buildings' original layout. We are assuming these are new condos but there's not much out there on the development. This adaptive reuse buildings are also reminiscent of the Gateway Condos a bit further south but should not be confused with that yet-to-be-finished project. The closest subway to this location is the B,C at 116th Street. Photos by Ulysses.
.....and the over supply of condos in Harlem marches on! Documented thoroughly by Curbed
ReplyDeletehttp://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/03/17/harlems_condo_oversupply_mapped_and_dissected.php
You can buy a condo on the UWS @ under $650 ppsf all over the place like here
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/listings.ASpx?ListingID=1265933&utm_source=NateFind&utm_campaign=corporate&utm_medium=listings
You can also buy Coop inventory on the UWS for under $550 ppsf like here
http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1864495
Harlem is lovely. But at $700, $800, $900+ ppsf? I think not. Harlem is a $3-$4 hundred ppsf market for coop inventory (at best), a $400-$500 ppsf for condo inventory. These places will be empty into 2012....
Harlem new apt inventory's biggest problem is that lots of areas of lower Manhattan are coming in at $700/sq' and under going forward. Someone once told me real estate is about location, location, location. Has that changed anynone? I did not think so....
Oh boy. Another one trying to will the Harlem prices down to a level that he/she can afford!
ReplyDeleteYou can cherry pick listings all you want, but the fact is, there is a wide range of prices across Harlem, depending upon where you are looking.
123rd & Lenox - $650 sq. ft
http://www.trulia.com/property/3009796847-117-W-123rd-St-New-York-NY-10027
148th st - $495 sq. ft
http://www.trulia.com/property/17038504-603-W-148th-St-New-York-NY-10031
UWS - 88th & West End Ave - $900 sq. ft
http://www.trulia.com/property/3017200680-590-W-End-Ave-5A-New-York-NY-10024
So...what is your point exactly? I think paying twice as much to live on 88th as opposed to 148th is not worth it.
Also, there are plenty of condo buildings across Harlem that have either sold out completely or are around the 60% sold mark.
Are they co-ops or condominiums? I would be very surprised.
ReplyDeleteA nonprofit group that deals exclusively in affordable housing, in all its permutations, is involved and/or is the owner of the properties - Community Preservation Corporation. Also, I think they deal mostly in rentals, not even HDFCs.
10:52 - is just another disgruntled Brooklyn resident who is upset about the sea of abandoned construction sites. Brooklyn is a dump!
ReplyDeleteOh well, you should have stuck with Manhattan and bought a place in Harlem.
hmmm.. So I am normally slightly bearish about the ppsf in harlem, however the case you have made here is flawed. Both of those apartments that you used as examples are firstly so close to central or western harlem, it is hard to call them uws proper. Show me something in the 70's or even the 90's that is a realistic option that is listing for 500 or 600 ppsf, hell even 700. And by realistic I mean not in some strange studio building where all the apartments are no more that 600 sq feet. Many of the condos in at least the fdb corridor are 1000 sq ft apartments, some have outdoor spaces, and the finishes are at least new and somewhat upscale. Yes location is very important, but with the express train service at 125th street in central harlem, it is hard to make a case that 107th st or even 101st is really that better of a location than say 122nd or 121st. The closest bit of accuracy you may have stated was that prices should be a little closer to $500 sq ft. Inorder for a decent condo in central harlem to go as low as $400 sq ft, a major downturn in the new york economy would have to happen. Prices right now realize a similar 1000 sq ft apartment in the 80's to be at least 750 to 800 ppsf to say that a central harlem location is worth half that is a little far fetched. maybe a 20 or 30% percent reduction at most.
ReplyDeleteSeriously. I am confused as to why people are talking about 20-30% price reductions, when condos have already been marked down considerably and sales are finally picking up. Look back over this blog and a number of building have either sold out completely or are over 50% sold.
ReplyDeleteThis blog is becoming a haven for little people getting themselves excited over the prospect of prices coming down even further. Either that or Brooklynites disillusioned with their own real estate market (which actually is also showing signs of picking up at long last).
Just to clarify, when I said a 20 or 30 percent price reduction. I meant in ppsf comparison to the upper west side(80's ,90's). Not necessarily a price reduction from the asking prices of current harlem apartments. But the poster made some good points and the idea that these condos are selling is a bit of an overstatement. I track monthly closings on condos and coops in central and western harlem and can tell you, without any hesitation, that these units are not flying off the selves. Yes, there has been a very slow and small trickle of sales over the past few months, but the reality is that there is a huge amount of stock that is not moving. Even the apartments that are selling are selling at price reductions that bring the ppsf into the $500 to $600 range. The number most buyers seem to be waiting for is 500 ppsf. If asking prices, and some already are, somewhere south of 600ppsf then interest improves in hopes of getting a unit for the magic number. But, to have asking prices above 600 ppsf at this point is pushing it, and above 700 for the overall quality of the finishes in these places is just plain silly.
ReplyDeleteWhat's up with hate'in on Brooklyn? Perhaps you should read todays WSJ, certainly looks more promising than Harlem!
ReplyDeletehttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704220704575367072257293444.html
12:04 - Silly, they're obviously trying to promote Brooklyn to try and get rid of the massive amount of inventory languishing out there...those developers want to get paid - maybe some day.
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 12:04pm, I think it is just friendly banter on here ;) Over on Curbed, however, a couple of Brooklynites seems to have nothing but hatred for most things Harlem. Never quite understood the energy wasted in hating other neighborhoods. Saw that article this morning...great news for BK. Seems to have followed a similar trend to Harlem (and Manhattan in general). Hope it continues!
ReplyDeleteSeems to me you live in Harlem because you love Harlem, not because of some magic psf benchmark or mythical Wholefoods or restaurants 99% of people won't be able to afford.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the sf wonks should stick to Curbed.
Chris - it's simply a marketing blitzkrieg. Brooklynites view Harlem as a direct competitor for home buyers. And with the dire state of Brooklyn real estate I don't blame them for trying.
ReplyDeleteWhy keep ppsf discussion off this site? its an important factor for the future of harlem. You can live in some magical wonderland that there are so many people who love harlem that they are willing to pay anything to live here, but the reality is that it was a baran wasteland of empty building and crime through much of the 80's.... which only under rezoning has brought any growth. Harlem has a huge supply of condos for sale, and unless they sell them and get people in the those buildings, the remaining stalled developments will sit idle and the half empty buildings will start to look, well, baran again. And the more tax payers and possible consumers will help support the going out of business lees bakeries and even possibly slightly improve the attendance of the ailing churches. Seems to me the prices developers are asking for all these empty condos in Harlem is a very important topic of discussion. Screw brooklyn, who cares what is going on there or if they like us or not.
ReplyDelete@12.30. Fair point. It's just all getting a bit train spotter-ish for me. Like people who go to ball games and spend all their time scribbling down stats and never enjoy the game.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am getting a little tired of this crap about restaurants that 99% of people can afford. If you want harlem to be a neighborhood that is 100% hdfc housing and projects, then keep it up. If you are referring to the yet to open red rooster, the poor guy hasn't even posted a menu yet and people are already complaining about it being to expensive. Who cares if some people cannot afford to eat there, what is this some socialist state? If it brings tourists and other people from the city to eat there then that supports all the other great things about harlem that are struggling, like the museums and apollo. Heaven forbid some people actually move to harlem who could afford to eat at an moderately priced restaurant. You might even be surprised to know that there are already people living here who can afford to eat at a somewhat expensive restaurant. perhaps you would prefer another hardees, or little ceasers, run by some national chain. And perhaps you would also just prefer to leave the lot at 125th vacant and fenced up, rather than welcome the jobs that the possible whole foods or hyatt could bring to the neighborhood. It dumbfounds me that some people live in this glass bubble, afraid of change and growth.
ReplyDeleteenjoy the game. One of the greatest things about harlem is the architecture and brownstones, but its hard to fully enjoy that game when so many are boarded up or in shambles. I dream of the day when the beautiful building across from 88 morningside gets saved and brought back to its glory. I dream of the day when the unemployed harlemites have jobs, in their neighborhood instead of relying on public assistance. keeping score, no I am playing the game, not sitting along on the sidelines blinded by some romantic concept that harlem is going to magically clean itself up.
ReplyDeleteI think the problem is, there are one or two anonymous posters on here (probably the same person) that feel the need to constantly highlight the so-called plight of the condo market in Harlem, when in fact the future is looking incredibly bright for Harlem and far brighter than it has done for years.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the point of blabbing on about prices per sq. ft. in Harlem and what MAY happen if the economy was to go one way or another? Seems utterly pointless to me and as Sanou's Mum said, you live in Harlem b/c you love Harlem. Speculators, please stick to Curbed.
Anon @ 12:30pm, why is price per sq. ft an important topic of discussion? Who does it impact? It seems to me that the same discussions are had over and over again.
If you read the rest of the posts here, you will understand. Harlem is on the brink of a renaissance. Jobs, healthy food, less drugs on the streets, church attendance, dangerous boarded up buildings being refurbished, empty lots getting built on, better schools. All of it...... has to do right now with occupation of the empty apartments in Harlem. If all these developments cannot sell these units, they sit empty or get rented out to more transient people who do not have a vested interest in the neighborhood or the community. Any chance of the kind of development that brings jobs to harlem stalls. The reason why they are not selling is because the apartments are overpriced. That is usually denoted as ppsf. I am not a proponent that prices need to drop to something ridiculous, but they need to dip enough to renew interest in people wanting to move here.
ReplyDeleteIf the vacant units did not move this spring then, overall, it will probably take another cycle and next spring the prices will drop and many of the units will sell. That is just business. Onward to 2011!
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly confident that a lot of people moving to Harlem in recent years (myself included) do so because they were priced out of other more desirable areas with better amenities in addition to wanting more space for their money. It is naive and idealistic to say that people live in Harlem simply because they love Harlem as is. Living in NYC is about constant trade-offs and is not as simple as choosing to live where you love. There is this nagging issue of money that always gets in the way. Sorry if that destroys the fantasy some of you have about the love everyone has of Harlem.
ReplyDeleteanon @ 12:56pm...and in a similar vein, when the Aloft Hotel opens, the new Hyatt and Wholefoods are built, Red Rooster opens, Bier International opens, and any other number of restaurants open, more Brownstone shells converted to their original brilliant state, then you will start to see prices per sq. ft. increase and more people start moving to Harlem as the positive press starts to outweigh the negative that has been predominant for so many years. Onward to 2011!
ReplyDelete12.58, I think it is a mix of both. I for one moved to Harlem, because, yes, I love Harlem. I used to live on the Upper West Side, but chose to move closer to 125th. I like the diversity, I like having transport so close by. Of course, having more space was also a factor, but Harlem has a history and diversity that is unmatched across NYC.
ReplyDeleteThe posters on this string, that started this whole discussion, make a valid point. When you consider moving to a neighborhood a variety of factors come into play. I do not want to get too much into the history of harlem in general or the diversity factor here, but most developing (gentrifying- oh no he didn't!) neighborhoods have had minorities or ethnicity. Hell New york in its whole was one big war of immigrants in its history. Harlem has been jewish, italian, and black just to scratch the surface over IT'S history. The fact remains though, that harlem has struggled over the past 30 years to bring it self back. And there are challenges still to be had. Like other neighborhoods that offer middle class new yorkers the opportunity to get a little more space in a decent transportation area. So really that is the only other comparison to brooklyn or queens. Those are the other options in new york. If you love the feel of harlem, over lets say fort green or flushing or bed sty, then great, that is factor in your decision. But price is another....and the best thing for Harlem to keep the momentum of development is to get consumers on the streets buying the services and creating jobs. That means selling the developments. The worst thing that can happen is for whatever businesses that have braved the move to harlem to end up going out of business because there was not enough demand. You cant put the chicken before the egg. If you bring the people, the businesses will follow.
ReplyDeleteYou cant buy the cart before the horse.
ReplyDeleteThe Apt. (condo & coop) was built on what is generally termed as "real estate landfill". Harlem has no history of pricing or values of apartments, no new development was ever built pre 2000 for decades. The Renaissance Bldg, Harriet Tubman Bldg, Rosa Parks Bldg, Even Strivers Towers or whatever it is on the top of 135th, all that inventory between 117 & 119 on Madison, an orchestrated effort took place with heavy incentives (nearly free in some cases) to get new apts sold & occupied. It was critical to create the appearance of new apt. purchases and occupancy (a demand) when in truth, lucky lottery winners were allowed to buy below market or receive some other perk motivating the purchase, but NOT and open market. This inventory and these stats are the "real estate landfill".
ReplyDeleteOnce this landfill was in place, phase 2 was to convince private developers to come here and build and argue the units could be sold at market free of freebies, perks, etc. Thanks to loose lending to developers and buyers, presto, all this inventory is here. The Glut that is here is a product of slapping together inventory on the assumption that demand the real estate landfill created the illusion of.....was real. It was not.
Hence why you see developers themselves in major trouble with their loans (5th on the Park, The Lenox, bankrupt). There's a brand new finished development on Lenox and 128th & 5th that's been untouched for nearly 2 years (Developer finance problems). If you read up on real estate, you know the rules have changed. The cozy relationship of local appraisers green-lighting values in Harlem is over, this was well documented in the WSJ a month or so ago. Now unbiased non-local appraisers are used and the values are plummeting (again, read the WSJ about this).
Harlem (and Harlem developers) needed loose lending practices & cozy relationships between appraisers and banks to pick up on the illusion the "real estate landfill" produced. Harlem can't support an open and free market of even $700 ppsf on its own. Corcoran and Warburg are not dumb and there is a reason they closed their Harlem offices last year, and not a bullish reason for Harlem. They know. Those with the most to gain closed their Harlem offices. They know going forward, the growth, the money to make ain't here - Harlem - (for them).
None of what I've said applies to Brownstones and townhouses as you can't reproduce that inventory. There are massive, extensive,and pervasive problems for Harlem apt. inventory every where you look. But again, this is what happens when your foundation is basically "landfill" and not real, not a product of real markets....
I agree with the poster at 1:46.
ReplyDeleteThe quality of life issues are not sufficiently addressed, and if this continues, people simply will not want to live here. I have observed many people moving in, and then moving out when the realities hit home.
This is not the east village, people ! Which does not mean that the situation is impossible. It does mean, though, that all of the "new building," and "great restaurant !!!" claims in the world will not resolve the deeper issues.
1.46...just can't resist the temptation can you? Seriously...do you have a life or must you always have the final say as to how Harlem can't support xyz per sq. ft or is on the verge of disaster? How do you know what it can or can't support? You are hypothesizing, but trying to dress it up as fact. How are certain buildings completely sold out or at 60% sold if Harlem can't support the current price model? Corcoran closed their office because, not sure if you had noticed, there was a recession. I am pretty sure as Harlem bounces back you will see offices reopening. Prudential have a couple of offices in Harlem. Are you saying they don't know what they are doing? Free apartments? Are you just making this stuff up? Please provide some evidence where free apartments were handed out. This is the stuff of conspiracy theories! Must be wonderful sitting behind your computer being able to throw random bits of information out there, without having to provide the evidence.
ReplyDeleteYou claim Harlem is this special disaster case, but other neighborhoods have fared FAR worse. What about the glut of apartments in Brooklyn, on the Upper East Side? The UES has seen a decline in prices almost beyond any other neighborhood. Is the foundation there basically "landfill" also?
Seriously...the city is coming out of a recession. As the economy improves, sales will continue to improve. End. Of. Story.
I think your assessment is not off mark, but a bit heavy handed. There is a market for the condo's in harlem. There has been interest. People come and look at them and see what they have to offer. People come up in the evening and night and walk around to feel the community and attempt to get a feel for the risks associated with living in this neighborhood. It does not help that a turn down the wrong side street gets sketchy or that even on a decent street there is drug deal happening. harlem has many great qualities, but the market here right now is less than what these condos are asking. They are just not selling at 700 ppsf. As an owner in harlem it would appear that right away, lowering these prices and moving these apartments would de value my apartment. And that is slightly true, but I think the benefits of getting people here and creating a sale-able market would bring the businesses and the commerce to the area. Places like the figment of imagination whole foods might actually get built. In the long run, that brings the value of property back up and has the added possible outcome of revitalizing the neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteThere is a market at 500 ppsf. If that finally happened people would start buying again.
Anonymous at 2:00pm. "I have observed many people moving in, and then moving out when the realities hit home." - So how do you explain the recent studies that have shown Caucasian numbers to be steadily increasing throughout Harlem? Not saying only Caucasians are moving to Harlem, but this is a statistic indicative of progress. I happen to have noticed the opposite of what you claim. People moving to Harlem and staying.
ReplyDeleteAnon, 2:09pm...a fair and balanced assessment. Bloody hell. It isn't that hard!
ReplyDelete@2:02 all of your points are completely false. anyone with a streeteasy account can look at the sales volumes in harlem over the past year. Very few condo buildings in harlem are completely sold out and many are not at 60%. Some have even stalled completion. I live next door to one that is on the small side and has nicer, better apartments than most in central harlem and they cannot even move their remaining units at just under 600 per square foot. Yes, there is a recession. But your analogy of other neighborhoods fairing worse or equivilant to what harlem is experiencing with unsold units is wrong. Most developments in brooklyn are much better than harlem, except for maybe the outskirts like bed sty. The closest comparison you could argue would be LIC, and there are obvious reasons for that.
ReplyDeleteThere is no end of story here. This is a real issue that effects Harlem.
Poster at 2:10: All I can say is, if the quality of life does not improve, things will implode.
ReplyDeleteI think you should exercise caution suggesting that "Caucasian numbers" mean "progress."
Harlem is moving forward!....and some will get left behind wondering why they didn't jump on the opportunity.
ReplyDelete2:10 As a mixed race race person I am on the fence about you statement that more white people shows progress to harlem. I think that if you look closer at that statistic you will see that it is actually a strong mix of non blacks that are increasing in harlem, rather than just white...... but as an ivy educated whatever you want to call me who moved to Harlem I recognize that this neighborhood has issues that keep it from growing. Unfortunately, I also see that people I know who are looking to buy a place in the price range that harlem is offering right now, and are choosing brooklyn or elsewhere, because of the issues that harlem has. I am not saying there is not hope, but in case you have not noticed there are empty storefronts everywhere, new and old. The potential can only be filled by people who want the services.
ReplyDelete"But your analogy of other neighborhoods fairing worse or equivilant to what harlem is experiencing with unsold units is wrong."
ReplyDeleteWhy?
"Most developments in brooklyn are much better than harlem"
Rubbish. I have seen plenty of developments in Williamsburg that are plain awful. Again, another Brooklynite bad-mouthing and trying to discredit Harlem.
2:16pm - It sounds like you're just trying to impersonate a Harlem resident. If you in fact lived in Harlem I doubt that your tone would be so dimeaning and harsh.
ReplyDeleteThe games people play...who do you think you're fooling? And if you love Brooklyn so much than what are you doing in Harlem?
2:30, that came across a bit wrong. Apologies. I was just taking the Caucasian statistic to explain that people are moving to Harlem AND staying.
ReplyDelete@12.38 et al. Rising to the bait.
ReplyDeleteI have never eaten in a chain restaurant so no, Well, maybe Howard Johnson’s when I was little and damn but that Applebees looks good when I walk by. So I don’t want a Denny’s or the like. But I would like some places that my neighbours could go for an evening out, a birthday, an anniversary.
And I lived on the lower east side back when/before it was called “Alphabet City” and you simply Did Not Go East of Avenue A. Not even on a bet. Now it’s turned into one big frat house and I don’t think we want that for Harlem.
I agree hotel construction and new retail would be good for jobs, if, in fact, they hire from the neighbourhood. I also, however, repeat that no one from Whole Foods has ever confirmed they are remotely thinking of opening on 125th Street.
What I am trying to say is that we should all enjoy Harlem for what it is, now, and in the future. So slow it down a bit—nothing happens fast up here anyway—live in the present, as they say. And if you don’t like it, don’t move here. You’re not going to be happy. It’s like marrying someone and then immediately trying to change them.
And “Tear down the projects”—and I know you’re lurking out there. . . this is a gawd awful translation but simple. . . I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.
Matthew 25:45
Anon @ 2:38pm, I was thinking the same thing. It is a shame people are that desperate.
ReplyDelete2:35pm - Well said! Harlem is moving forward regardless of the sticks and stones!
ReplyDeleteBrooklyn is a dump and quite scary in most places.
Old Harlem proverb:
ReplyDeletePay attention to the sticks and stones. There might be some truth at hand.
Chris and 2:38 don't go all polly anna on me. How can I prove to you I live in Harlem? Shall we meet at society after work for a cup of coffee and talk about it. That might be fun. Listen, I moved to Harlem because I like it better than Brooklyn, but that does not mean that properties are not selling at greater volume and prices than the condos in harlem. It is what it is.. I took a friend a few weeks ago to a development on 112 th street. Only 5 out of 30 apartments even in contract. Along the way she accidently walked through the st nicholas houses on her way to meet me. At the open house she looked out the window to see two pit bulls that someone had stuck on the fire escape for a while, 5 flights up. Unfortunately, these are some of the issues harlem is facing. Its not about brooklyn vs harlem other than the fact that overall sales of developments in brooklyn are fairing better. That may be something y'all do not want to hear, but that is the reality.
ReplyDeleteAnd 2:38 And the fact that you think my observations of the real estate market in Harlem are demeaning and harsh denotes that I have some personal dislike of Harlem. I love Harlem thats why I live here, But I also want it to grow and flourish. I want the drug dealers off my street and the trash cleaned up. I want the schools to be better and generally it to be healthier... I can still love harlem and want those things.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:07pm, I hear ya. BTW...who the hell would put pit bulls on a fire escape?!
ReplyDeleteP.S Always up for a cup of coffee at Society man!
Anon 3:07, you are entitle to your point of view but many people on this site disagree with it and they have their opinions which are equally valid. I looked at over 40 apartments before buying in Harlem a few years back. Most of them were in Brooklyn and many were near housing projects. Yes-Brooklyn has housing projects also and all the other issues the middle class complain about. What I have noticed since living here is that things are moving dramatically towards the right direction and that Harlem is a much different place than it was even 5 years ago.
ReplyDelete2:57 - We'd love to see the stats that you're basing your statements on, which indicate buyers contemplating purchases in Harlem vs. Brooklyn and where they wind up purchasing. Let's be honest, most people can't deal with the machete gangs and car thefts/toast-athons prevalent in Brooklyn...that is unless they are police officers.
ReplyDelete3:07 - Who's reality...yours alone perhaps.
Sanou's mom can come too! She wont mind of the service is slow!
ReplyDelete3:13 - is still trying to pass himslef for a Harlem resident. Get back to Curbed and Streeteasy and play your dirty little games.
ReplyDeleteThe statistics for sales of properties are easily attainable by looking at streeteasy. This is not really an opinion vs. fact situation. Its public record.
ReplyDelete3:27 How can I prove that I live in Harlem?
ReplyDeleteEveryone should heed the poster at 3:07. S/he has removed the rose-colored glasses.
ReplyDeleteFirst: See the reality.
Then: Participate in improving it.
At all times, leave the rose-colored glasses at home. I learned the hard way.
Only a few pitbulls ? Aw, come on. I can tell better stories than that ! Tragic, isn't it.
Harlem is marching on the right direction. Plenty of work to be done, but all of the signs are there that it is being recognized as a potential hub for transport, hotels and business. These are all facts. Look at the other post by Ulysses about the potential hotel on 127th. Will these projects all come to fruition? Who knows. But, as the area improves there is every likelihood that one or two of them will come through. Look at the Aloft hotel on FDB. Who on earth would have thought something that cutting edge would have been build in Harlem five or ten years ago?
ReplyDeleteBefore I came up to Harlem, I saw plenty of places in Brooklyn. I am talking close to fifteen apartments and believe me, there is no shortage of projects in Brooklyn. One place I saw in the "Toy Factory" building in Downtown Brooklyn bordered directly on projects and was at the time going for the mid $700s per sq. ft.
I saw places in Williamsburg that were a ways away from the subway and felt like the middle of bloody nowhere. I saw places in LIC that again felt like ghost town with absolutely no soul.
So...for the Harlem bashers out there, Brooklyn for me does not offer anywhere near the soul, heart, community spirit and convenience that Harlem offers (I have been here for almost a year and feel that more so than ever before).
Not saying things are perfect by any means, but I feel like this is a neighborhood that one can easily call home.
It seems that the same person is posting comments as if he/she were other people...even responding to him/herself.
ReplyDelete3:30 - very well said. With that we should think of ending the endless convo with the troll.
ReplyDeleteChris those are all good points, but you are missing the point. There really was not any harlem bashing in this string. It was more just an observation stemming from the original post that another condo was coming on the market, and that they are not selling very quickly at the current asking prices....... in general comparison to other neighborhoods. it does not matter so much, why it just is...The point was empty condo oversupply is not a good thing.
ReplyDeleteI think Columbia's expansion alone, which will inject approx $7 Billion into the economy, dwarfs the combined investment in Brooklyn in recent memory.
ReplyDeletePlease people we're talking about Manhattan...all the others are just OUTER BOROUGHS!
3:36 - Brooklyn is the prime example of oversupply, stalled projects, and foreclosures! That's a fact!
ReplyDeleteInteresting ... anyone who is not a cheerleader for Harlem must be a troll.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, there could not be more than one person who disagrees with the cheerleaders. Thus, it must be one poster.
I read this entire thing and I did not observe any Harlem bashing. I did hear lots of defensiveness though - as someone commented.
3:42 - your technique in trying to get others to lay down their gaurd is impressive but your not fooling us!
ReplyDelete3:32 and 3:35 I contributed 2 posts on this string and felt it was sort of lively discussion. It beats talking about the farmers market and how pretty the stone ballasts are in front of some townhouse in hamilton heights. These kind of discussions bring out some real topics that people who live here should talk about.
ReplyDeleteAnon, come on. Read the first post again. "Harlem is a $3-$4 hundred ppsf market for coop inventory (at best)". If that isn't Harlem bashing, I don't know what is. Of course this person can expect some sort of backlash posting on a Harlem forum. I am pretty much done wasting my energy and time on this one.
ReplyDeleteThat comment was directed at 3:42 btw.
ReplyDeleteHaha. good response 3:42. and 3:45 you are crazy. There are definitely more than a few posters in agreement on this thread.
ReplyDelete3:47 - Agreed....done.
ReplyDeleteI think the first poster was a lone wolf, he/she just got things going. I dont think anyone after that agreed with those proposterously low values on harlem RE.
ReplyDeleteAre you kidding me - I live in Harlem but am counting down to the day I can move to Fort Greene or Prospect Heights. Lets not kid ourselves, several parts of Brooklyn are far far ahead of Harlem. Fort Greene or Clinton Hill has no soul - PUH LESE. Love where you live, but BK has some great hoods.
ReplyDeleteBut Chris, why is that bashing ? I admit that know nothing at all about real estate statistics, and have no interest really, but low-ish ones would make sense to me from a common sense standpoint given the quality of life issues here. I have a firsthand knowledge of many of the perpetrators and if you do not, well, this may be the reason for your optimism. I have worked with groups and committees and residents and animals ... and it is downright discouraging, the attitudes and lifestyles and the degree of entrenchment.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, I am not a "bulldoze the projects" person, not at all. People who can help need to get involved in these problems, move past the arguments about prices for square feet and this means things are great. To me, an educated observer, "new buildings" means something being mapped on to the problems, which are not addressed.
Seriously folks, lets let go of the brooklyn angle here. This discussion is not about brooklyn. They are fine people and brooklyn has many things to offer.......goodspeed brooklynites. Lets get back to harlem.
ReplyDeleteMy there's a lot of pontification going on in this thread. Anyone have facts? Real numbers to support a point? Too much to ask for?
ReplyDeleteAP - Emily Eakin and Ellen Jane Patton sold a four-bedroom, two-bath condo at 100 W. 119th St. in Central Harlem to Gareth R. John and Carmen V. Melendez-Vasquez for $725,000 on May 19, 2009. Eakin and Patton paid $1.125 million for Unit #6A in 2006. The seven-story Normandie condominium building dates back to 1910 and offers 37 units.
Losing over 25% in just 3 years on a 2006 Harlem Apt purchase. Oh dear,... forget about these pesky facts, please...continue on with your baseless pontification and how fabulous Harlem real estate apartments perform and deliver a return on their costs. Never let the facts get in the way of a good tale. I hear if you insist it enough times, it's true. So that I say "Pass the Kool-Aid", nothing holds it's value like a Harlem apt!
The first poster was a little too organized and focused on trying to make a far fetched case that harlem property was overpriced by 50% or more. That is unrealistic and seemed contrived. The thread continued with more viable discussion, until people got all defensive and cheerleadery about harlem. And then somehow brooklyn became involved, with the argument that there is some conspiracy between brooklyn and harlem to make each other look bad. Oh and there there was the concept that there was only one anonymous poster, as there could only be one person who would say anything non positive about everything harlem including overpriced condos.. equally as farfetched. It was a good thread though.
ReplyDeleteAnon 4:20 is the same person that always trots out that one example. Have any other ones you care to share? You cannot generalize from one cherry-picked example since you don't know if there were extenuating circumstances in that one case.
ReplyDelete4:20 valid post. I dont think many deny the fact that people have lost money today if they are selling a property bought in the boom. In fact harlem price drops in the past 4 years are even more extreme than normally desirable neighborhoods, although most people on this time line would loose money. The question is are the current prices low enough to move the supply of the developments. What will it take to get more people to move to harlem and occupy these buildings as buyers?
ReplyDeleteOK...I wanted to leave this one alone, but I genuinely think 4:20 and 4:31 are the same person lol. This is too funny for words.
ReplyDeleteAnon 4:31 - "What will it take more people to move to harlem and occupy those buildings"- restaurants, shopping and good schools!
ReplyDeleteSorry Bro, I am 4:31, but not 4:20.... I personally think 4:20 gave a bad example. When I bought my apartment on 123 rd street I felt bad for the other people in my building who had bought two years earlier. I bought in at about 15% less per square foot than they did.
ReplyDeleteIm curious though, why do you think that there are not numerous people who look at harlem bespoke and comment?
anon 4:41 here, just avoid conspiracy theory,
ReplyDelete@anon 4:38 how does that happen? those things do not happen overnight, especially schools. People have to move here and go to school board meetings and get involved. more people, more involvement. the first incentive is to get people into the community.
Me thinks the only way to prove you are not the same anon posting over and over again is coming up with a user name. Chris at least has done that.
ReplyDeleteYeah, got a little confused with anonymous comments and times there 4:41 ;) I'm all for having people register and post under a user name. Save a lot of confusion!
ReplyDeleteanon 4:41 here, just avoid conspiracy theory,
ReplyDeleteYou do not have a user name. whats to stop them from thinking you are me, or some other anonymous poster? I have only posted about 4, maybe 5 at this point comments on here.
anon 4:41 here, just avoid conspiracy theory,
ReplyDeleteThe truth is chris, there are many anonymous comments on this string and if I got a user name, you would all be claiming the other anonymous commenters were the same person. The only way to remove your fear is to do away with all anonymous commenters. I will tell you though, your assumption that we are all the same person is without a doubt false.
doth protest much anon 4:41, 4:47????? I am not denying that I have posted different times under the same anon. You are.
ReplyDeleteThis is tiring....I'm so done with this BS. We all know it's the same guy commenting and replying to himself.
ReplyDeleteanon 4:41 here, just avoid conspiracy theory,
ReplyDeleteno of course not. I said I posted, well now, 6 times maybe 7 under this thread under anon. but there were at least another 6 other anon commenters on this thread that shared similar sentiment to mine. so do what you want with that.... the imeediate reaction by a harlem cheerleader would be they are all the same person. and the brooklyn conspiracy theory was a hoot.
Poster at 4:44: There are people living here already; they are remarkably absent at community and other meetings.
ReplyDeleteThe simplest thing to do is - identify problems and do not worry about apologizing. For some reason, I have observed, newcomers find it necessary to make speeches about "loving Harlem" before suggesting that there might be an issue with, say, littering, sex with prostitutes in vacant lots, etc. No need to do that. It wastes time at the meetings. I do understand where this comes from but I also think honesty needs to replace guilt in order to accomplish something. Call things as they are.
And yes, some do seem to require the apologies - ignore them. Litter is still litter.
anon 4:41 here, just avoid conspiracy theory,
ReplyDeleteMy favorite anon commenter that was not me was 1:46. He probably had the most useful information
PS. "Caucasian numbers" guy: Either keep away from the meetings, or keep your sentiments to yourself. That was downright disrespectful and also incorrect. It will not endear you to people.
ReplyDeleteanon 4:41 here, just avoid conspiracy theory,
ReplyDeleteThanks 4:56 I was starting to feel outnumbered. I hope more people say something and don't just cheerlead. We can make harlem great, and that in the end is what makes a community.
@12:43: I've actually been in New York long enough that the current state of Harlem already looks like a dream come true. Yes,there is so much fabulous housing stock that it will take still more time before every street is transformed. Compared to the Harlem of the late 80's, however, Harlem today is almost unrecognizable. Apparently dreams do come true, but people don't always notice.
ReplyDeleteFinally! I read through these last 40 or so ridiculous comments and 4:56 and 5:07 make good points. I live up here and I am white and I have felt guilty about calling 311 and 911 so many times but it doesn't help to feel guilty. Harlem is beautiful but Harlem has problems that are a long time in the making. It will be hard to eradicate the drugs, the gangs, the loitering, the littering, etc. but I think over time it can happen - the bigger the middle class (of any race, creed, or color) gets the more those problems will be curtailed. I hope the condos fill up with lower prices - the sooner the better.
ReplyDeletePoster 5:07 is right. My husband lived near here when feral dogs ran in Morningside Park, buildings burned on FDB (then called 8th Ave) and the only reason to step foot in Harlem was to buy drugs. Look around you, appreciate the degree of urban renewal that has already happened and agitate for more!
ReplyDeleteIn addition to calling 911 and 311, which you should do with impunity, you can post complaints about garbage and litter on the sanitation web site. You can also ask for lot cleaning or complain about unsightly garbage areas. You need an address. You can also include pictures.
ReplyDeleteTo save you time: Sanitation takes complaints about garbage that can be seen from a public area like the street or sidewalk. Otherwise, it is the health department, which means 311; or trying very hard to see it from the street !
Sanitation will come - relatively quickly, too. Of course, this will not solve the problem of the perpetrators - see below.
If people are hanging around stoops and behaving badly, look up the owners or managements and phone them. You can find this information at "hpd online" - if you use google it will come up.
I'm looking for advice on how to handle an issue. Almost every night in the summer there is a group of between 5 and 10 people who set up folding chairs on the sidewalk and eat and drink for hours. I don't really have an issue with that, but the issue is that they toss all of the garbage into the park that is right behind where they set up their chairs. Eventually the Parks maintenance people clean it up after a few days, but then the people come back at night and toss their garbage again. It is really unsightly. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteTell them to pick up their f#€%ing garbage.
ReplyDeleteI prefer not to confront ignorant people in front of where I live. Never now how stupid they might get. Other thoughts?
ReplyDeleteTalking to them will not have a good result. They will accuse you of ruining Harlem culture, being racist if applicable, or a combination. I know this from hard experience. As one 32nd precinct officer once pointed out to us, people who are engaging in anti-social behavior (music, noise, littering) know what they are doing and they do not care. So it would never be effective anyway, and it would cause you a lot of trouble.
ReplyDeleteYou can report them on 311 for illegal dumping. You can also just say that you are tired of these people dumping their party garbage. If you can identify the people or where they live, it would be better.
Or, if you do know where they live (adjacent?) you can complain to that building management. In the project-type buildings, they are concerned about their tenants annoying residents. In regular buildings, the same people will often be a problem in other ways and so they are glad to hear it.
You can visit the precinct and complain, to whomever or to the community person - there is one in every precinct.
You could report them to the parks dept. - you could probably get the information online somewhere..
@8.55. Your suggestions are of course the correct ones. But there is a certain amount of satisfaction in yelling "yo ass##. Pick up your f@&# garage, yo!"
ReplyDeleteIt's a wonder I've lived as long as I have.
7:59 here. Thanks for the suggestions
ReplyDeleteOh, 4:20, you are a special person! How many times are you going to misrepresent the sale at the Normandie (119th and Lenox)? To fit your narrative you conveniently left out the fact that the owners had out-of-state family issues and had to move away, thus forcing a sale in 2009.
ReplyDeleteDo you remember what was happening in the economy last year? We were in the depths of the worst downturn since the Great Depression. The owners had the unfortunate luck of buying at market peak and selling at market bottom.
Losing 25% had nothing to do with the market in Harlem as the market in the entire freakin' country was just as bad. Or worse. In Naples, Florida 50% of the houses were/are in foreclosure. Las Vegas and large parts of California were similarly hit. Did you really think the readers here are so out of touch that we wouldn't have known about the current recession?
A word about "Loitering" around stoops. I am NOT referring to people who throw garbage into parks, menace anyone or are particularly disruptive with this comment, BUT, the other night, watching a television special on historical New York, I thought about some of the posts I've read here as Mario Cuomo and other famous New Yorkers rhapsodized about the "stoop culture" of their youth, when"all the neighbors came out and socialized on the front stoop every night," sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. Perhaps some of the stoop life in Harlem annoys some people more because they aren't part of it. Maybe, just maybe, considering a revolutionary act like coming out and trying to socialize for a few minutes (and yes, I am serious) without asking anyone to quiet down the first time you come out, will make you some friends who will be more considerate.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the poster at 11:04 that not all loitering is created equal.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, I have never found it difficult to distinguish the trouble from the socializing. And I have made many friends !
Many of the project building managements have placed signs, "No hanging out on the steps," because they know that this is often the occasion for drug sales, harassment of passers-by, littering, and other fun stuff. Unfortunately, the destructive residents inevitably defy the signs, usually sitting directly beneath them.
I do not have a problem with people hanging out on fron tof their buildings on the sidewalk. I do not even have a problem with people getting a little loud as the night progresses, especially on the weekends. The problem is that when you mix alcohol with that, the loud starts to become slightly menacing... and then the littering becomes more noticeable. Then walk down every other street where people are not necessarily sitting on their stoops as a community, but it is one or two guys with a backpack selling drugs on someone's stoop. We are so sensitive about keeping the flavor and identity of Harlem, that we are keep some of the bad flavor and identity. If we are such a community, you would think all the people on their doorsteps every night would be the neighborhood watch. But amongst that the drug dealers still roam, and the drunks, and the litterers. We as a community need to stop having a blind eye to the activities that are negatively effecting our community. And I wish I saw a few more cops on the streets in the night and evening doing the same.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion the stoop culture is not a bad one and part of Harlem’s positive engaging culture that may be alien to those from downtown. But some stoop culture is plain illegal and it is best to report it and report it often, and report from different concerned neighbors.
ReplyDelete9:18AM I don’t think you will see more beat cops with budget cuts and all, but the police a relying more on neighbors to keep on top of the illegal activity and to report it. In fact the police are very happy to get neighborhood support as Harlem has a history of anti police culture that needs to change.
ReplyDeletePoster at 9:28: I lived most of my life on Mott Street, i.e., downtown, where sitting outside was a major and positive part of daily life. I think it could be more that people new to New York in general do not know what to make of the sidewalk culture, even when innocent and positive. In that neighborhood, littering and belligerence did not exist. At all.
ReplyDeleteIt is not hard to distinguish between "flavor" and destructive behavior, especially in your own neighborhood. If, on your way to work in the AM, there are heaps of Popeye's and related garbage, beer, and whatever else, this is not positive sidewalk culture.
The police will be present where people are persistent in making complaints. Ditto the city. in some areas, the police are reluctant because they know too well what is going on and those things of which some people are capable. But when taxpayers complain and draw attention, things happen, even when feet are dragged initially.
If you post a "no loitering sign" on the building-- you've seen them a million times--you can call the cops for trespass if people are on your stoop.
ReplyDeleteHere on beautiful 119 cops have been doing loitering sweeps for a couple of weeks.
With the density of subsidized housing in Harlem, unfortunately many of the residents do not feel it to be a privilege to live here, like it is owed to them. Similarly many of the middle class bought here because they could barely afford it yet wanted to live in the city. In the process that gave up much of their life savings to buy in. Those people feel like they have an investment in the community.... the more mix of owners to offset the subsidized in Harlem will make the change. They are the ones that will call the cops and the sanitation dep. When the developers move the condo's you will see a difference.
ReplyDelete11:35, you're not very knowledged on Harlem. The subsidized housing population (projects, sec. 8, etc.) out-number equity holders (coops,condos,brownstones/townhouses) by 500 to 1 or more. They are young, they're having babies, what you did not know when you moved to Harlem is the entrenched poverty class, their density, they are immunized from every being priced out due to social welfare programs of one sort or another. Housing, Food, Medical, they have no fiscal concerns. Their numbers are vast, look it up. When you moved to Harlem, you accepted that you will live amongst and in between poverty and the welfare class going forward. That's it. It will always be (in our lifetimes). These people are immunized from the economy, the cost of living, there is nothing driving them out. I suggest you deal with it or move.
ReplyDelete11:53: You CAN do something about the destructive people. Yes, they live in subsidized housing, and not just the obvious projects. If they are a nuisance and this is legitimate, they can and will be removed if people adopt a zero tolerance stance. The subsidized buildings took taxpayer properties, and many are still under the observation of HPD or whomever else. Complain. Get names. Create paper trails. You agreed, as a taxpayer, on these transactions, and you DO have something to say about how your money has been spent.
ReplyDeleteFor those who are not a nuisance, who cares ? I am sorry to say that in my experience many of them are, however, it is still important to judge on a case-by-case basis.
There are at least 500+ market rate apartments in central harlem alone right now in real estate inventory for sale, and that does not include the townhouses that are being bought for renovation. 11:35 essentially said what you did, 11:35, except that when these apartments are filled the ratio will change. Additionally the HDFC properties can eventually become market rate.
ReplyDelete@11:53
ReplyDelete"these people"?
Oy.
11:53AM, You are wrong, I have observed significant change in behavior over the years, behavior that was once tolerated is now no longer acceptable as I have seen the blocks improve. So your suggestion that newcomers have to put up or leave is all wrong. In my experience newcomers should get involved in their community and get involved in not tolerating littering, drug selling etc and things do improve slowly.
ReplyDeleteI am in complete agreement with the westsider poster.
ReplyDeleteExcept ... some of the core bad areas have actually gotten worse of late. FDB between 125th and 135th comes to mind as one example. The crack and prostitute people once living on the lot between FDB and St. N., 128th street, have migrated to St. Nicholas Terrace, 127th Street, etc., which was already in trouble.
12:45PM, The problem individuals will collect in areas where no one cares. If that block you mention had active and involved neighbors the problem individuals would eventually move to a new block where no one is active and involved.
ReplyDeleteLiving in Harlem you get real used to blocking it out. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes it is better than it was 10 years ago, but often times you are witness to the perpetual cycle. And that is sad.
ReplyDeleteWestsider: We do care. We are working very hard on it as we speak.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the terrace, though, there is some outnumbering.
Ulysses: This thread is insane. It seems to have turned around somewhat, but I don't know who this works for.
ReplyDeleteWe need to disable anonymous posts. This won't stop anyone from posting who wants to, but it could at least make threads with more than a few comments somewhere closer to readable...
I do not see anything wrong with the majority of the posts on here. In fact it was probably one of the more interesting comment string on this site in a while.
ReplyDeleteI’m all for anonymous posts, it allows a wider variety of opinions, for better or worse, first amendment and all that.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think the nature of this post got people who normally do not comment inspired enough to say something. There were some great anon statements in this thread. If more anon people in Harlem got up a said something we would all be better off.
ReplyDeleteAfter 120 comments arguing about condos, aren't the buildings in question rental buildings?
ReplyDeleteThe owner is Tahl Propp a big landlord in Harlem. The buildings are two of about a dozen shells they bought in 2004 after the church mortgage scandal a few years before. They're selling off the others (we bought one) - many of the shells being sold in Harlem are their scandal siblings.
Those buildings may be rentals, but many of the unpurchased developments in Harlem are not. And the ones that have have turned into rentals or rent a portion of their stock are doing so in order to not sell at a reduced rate. If those buildings are in fact rentals, there is a chance that was not the original intention of the development.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying people need to post their SSN and photo in a profile, but having posters at least enter a pseudonym would alleviate some of the difficulty in reading through a thread such as this one...
ReplyDeleteAs regards the rental question, I said that near the start of the thread !
ReplyDeleteOne of the bodies involved or a part owner deals in affordable housing of whatever kinds.
Thank you Pete.
ReplyDeleteLong threads like this --you DO need a score card.