The 20 foot wide brownstone in the vicinity of the Mount Morris Park Historic District has been on and off the market for the past year but the price has stayed at $1.950 million. The 4,900 square foot home has 5 bedrooms, 5 bathrooms, 9 fireplaces and is classed as a three family home (even though it looks like it's configured for less). The block is within the proposed historic district extension and is plenty charming enough. Better amenities are close by along with the 2,3 express lines at 116th and 125th Street. This one looks to also be move-in ready. Has anyone seen this house?
The 20 foot wide brownstone in the vicinity of the Mount Morris Park Historic District has been on and off the market for the past year but the price has stayed at $1.950 million. The 4,900 square foot home has 5 bedrooms, 5 bathrooms, 9 fireplaces and is classed as a three family home (even though it looks like it's configured for less). The block is within the proposed historic district extension and is plenty charming enough. Better amenities are close by along with the 2,3 express lines at 116th and 125th Street. This one looks to also be move-in ready. Has anyone seen this house?
i went there twice a year ago. i loved it, but at that price with no c of o, no central air con, no working fireplace, the staircase to third floor too steep, the cellar looks very old as far as plumbing, and some wordworking needs to be done here and there but not bad. it is however very spacious with a great layout and very very beautiful. was hard to pass up but went for a park view instead.
ReplyDeleteIts habitable, but not-updated in any way.. and expensive for what it is. I think of $2m for a renovated house, not one that needs the stairs, fireplaces, aircon, etc. all fixing. It also lacks a CofO, which I believe the seller is rectifying. Lots of original details, so I guess the seller is looking for someone to fall in love...
ReplyDeleteLooks move in ready to me. $397 sq. ft? Have said it before (and been right), this will go for asking.
ReplyDeleteOh, this one's gonna rile up the troll alright.
ReplyDeleteThe troll seems to have checked out...
ReplyDeleteChris, you've lived in Harlem for how long, a cup of coffee or so? This has not gone for asking in the last year, what going forward makes you think it will sell at asking? Serious question.
ReplyDeleteFor you to be right, this property would be selling for 33% more than it's tax assessed value. Chris, that is not going to happen in '10, or '11, in Harlem. There is no reason to expect that to happen. However, perhaps you can point out to us how that indeed is going to happen and why.
Also to the point, I highly doubt in today's market this property could appraise sufficiently to secure a conventional 20/80 mortgage even if Halstead found a sucker willing to go $2M. Halstead prolly knows this, however this also hints to an owner intent on making a pretty penny off their original '95 purchase of $275K.
There are a lot of reasons why this property cannot sell at $2M, I am just illustrated the glaring reasons, now would you like an "inside" reason? I know the two agents with the listing. Nice people but not their "A" team. I've owned properties in Harlem for a while....and have notices patterns, and can often gauge the priority and expectations of the listing by the agents handling the listing. Sorry, an ugly truth of how the business works.
3, 4 years ago an mortgage appraisal was a no brainer and basically 'rubber stamped'. But as the WSJ addressed, especially in Harlem
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704853404575322993513715532.html
The days of the rubber stamp appraisal are long gone. Yes, I've seen deals in Harlem not happen despite willing buyers, willing sellers, due to being unable to get a sufficient appraisal on a standard 20/80 mortgage.
But go ahead Chris, please...why and how is this property going to sell at asking?
Because Reynolds93, I consulted my star chart this morning and it said so. I don't know man, I just think the price per sq. ft warrants it, but admittedly, I am not an expert in this field.
ReplyDeleteGenuine question: Where do you find the tax assessed value of your property?
On your tax bill.
ReplyDeleteTax Assessed value is provided annually by the NYC Department of Finance in a "Notice of Property Value" statement.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Tax Assessments vs Appraisals, for what it's worth I received an appraisal this year during a refinance that came in at more than 2x the Tax Assessment.
Like anything else, it's worth what somebody is willing to pay. I haven't seen the inside of this one but it's worth noting a number of recent transactions have occured near this price.
ReplyDelete215 West 137th - $2 million, mint renovation, 4000 square feet. 19 feet wide.
115 West 120th - $1.975 million, appears to be similar level of renovation, original details, 5000 square feet. 20 feet wide.
19 West 120th - $1.850 million, 20 feet wide, 4000-5000 square feet (not sure if there is an extension which adds 500 feet). Lots of original details, also appears to be similar level of renovation.
111 West 11th street- $1.965 million, 4500 square feet (?). 15 feet wide but 5 floors.
4 West 13rd - $1.65 million, 17 feet wide, similar level of renovation, 3600 square feet
5 West 121st Street - $1.65 million. 20 feet wide. Went instantly, many speculated it was an inside deal. No pictures posted so may have been in not great shape.
345 West 122nd - $1.6 million. 3400 square feet. Good original details but not super wide. Didn't have central air or a "mint" kitchen like 215 West 137th appeared to have.
We can say wildly overpriced but really depends on the condition of the building which only those who have been inside know. Does not seem crazy looking at comps ....
Gotta love Green Girl always weighing in with actual facts!
ReplyDeleteReynolds - i dont think that chris being new to Harlem means he doesnt have an opinion that is useful. i think his perspective represents that of a lot of newcomers heading our way - and therefore might represent what a buyer looking at this property might be thinking.
Green Girl said, "Like anything else, it's worth what somebody is willing to pay". Spoken like a true real estate hack. Of course this is total rubbish blended with utter nonsense.
ReplyDeletePeople pay far more than what the real estate is worth every single day. By the end of the first quarter of 2010, 24% of the number of mortgages for residential properties had negative equity. Furthermore, "5.1 million mortgage holders (or roughly 10% of Americans with mortgages) will own homes that are worth 75% or less than what they owe on their mortgages by mid-June."
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/real-estate/more-than-5-million-homes-will-be-worth-less-than-75-of-their-m/19342799/?icid=sphere_copyright
Sure you can follow Green Girl right off a cliff, or you can see the foolishness is applying throw-a-way feel good real estate hack 101 lines to property acquisition. Again, the tax assessed value of this property above ('09) is $1,460,000. It is not going to sell @ 33% above that despite what PT Barnum said (the foundation of real estate), not in this market going forward.
Comps mean almost nothing, way too many expensive unknowns to even take 33% above it's tax assessed value seriously. No one would even consider this without bringing in their own appraiser - however it not going to sell for this level, even with a clean bill of health (which it does not sound like it will have).
Reynolds I don't have a crystal ball and have not been inside the house. I'm not saying these houses will be worth more in 1 year than they are now. But comps are a great measure of what something is worth at the moment.
ReplyDeleteAnd what we do know is that very similar houses have sold in the last couple months for this amount. I repeat - the last couple of months, not 2007. So to say "It is not going to sell @ 33% above that despite what PT Barnum said (the foundation of real estate), not in this market going forward" is rather draconian when very similar houses have just sold for the same amount. If this house is in the same shape as the other ones, it very well could sell for a similar amount. You can argue something dramatic has changed since July or August but I personally don't think so. Volatility and fears of a double dip recession returned to the markets in May of 2010 and many of these houses sold well after that ..
At the end of the day, you can say whatever you want about townhouses in Harlem being "overpriced" - but understand you simply cannot get a vacant, 20 foot wide townhouse anywhere in Manhattan for less than $4 million EXCEPT Harlem. The townhouses you see under $4 million anywhere else in Manhattan generally have significant structural issues, have a rent stabilized tenant, or are in some way very undesirable (eg are configured as true multifamilies and it would be expensive to get them back to shape).
I love how Reynolds completely ignores GreenGirl's REAL numbers for recent sales lol. Reynolds, mate, not sure what your angle is, but GG went to the effort to highlight sales that are well within this price point, so at least acknowledge that. Oh, and not sure what being new to Harlem has to do with anything, unless, you are referring to your superior inside knowledge and how the 'system' works :)
ReplyDelete"but understand you simply cannot get a vacant, 20 foot wide townhouse anywhere in Manhattan for less than $4 million EXCEPT Harlem."
ReplyDelete-
oh brother, more real estate hack dialog. in the real world there is no border. buyers DO NOT say no way to Brooklyn, when in reality, if someone works on Wall Street (for example), a Bstone or Thouse in Brooklyn can be far far closer to their workplace than something similar in Harlem, and offer more amenities.
Harlem properties compete with Brooklyn and the Bronx for that matter and we know far more ex-Manhattan dwellers bought in Bkln than in Harlem (in finding an affordable bldg). What YOU must understand is your point lacks substance since there is a subway(perhaps you've heard of it), not to mention a bridge, and it may shock you Green Girl but it may be easier to get to a Wall Street workplace for thousands of people from Jersey City or Brooklyn than it is from Harlem.
I could appreciate your point if it was meaningful, but my dear...sorry, it's not. There is a world outside of Manhattan, and Harlem properties lose out in sales to properties in Brklyn (for example) every single day.
@Reynolds--you're being patronizing and it's not attractive.
ReplyDeleteGreenGirl made a statement specifically about Manhattan. Your countering with mentions of Brooklyn, New Jersey and the Bronx (!) do not make her point any less valid.
There's a lot of fun on this blog these days.
ReplyDeleteIts pretty clear that houses like this are selling for prices close to this asking price. So lets wait and see.
The concept of "worth" naturally confuses two different questions:
- how much will someone pay? (and that someone could be an outlier)
- what is the 'fundamental' value (usually based upon rental values/cashflows/etc.)
A house is worth what someone will pay for it. Very true. But that statement only holds if "other people" would pay similar, otherwise person #1 cannot sell.
Whats interesting here, is that this house is NOT renovated. It looks nice, but has no good kitchen, no good bathrooms, poor condition of woodwork and no a/c. Very different to the high priced houses GreenGirl quotes. So it will be interesting if it sells for close to asking...
Jay - This house may be in worse condition than some of the houses I mentioned. But let me assure you that many of the houses I mentioned - 19 West 120th, 115 West 120th, 345 West 122nd, 4 West 123rd - also do not have Central A/C or renovated kitchens and bathrooms (I know this because I have been inside them). Now, maybe the woodwork is in worse shape (but restoring the woodwork is less expensive than kitchen, bathrooms, etc. unless it's in REALLY terrible shape which it does not appear to be), though certainly the facade appears to be in worse shape when I walked by. I haven't been inside so I don't know. What I do know is that the only house I mentioned above that really was "mint" renovated was the West 137th Street one. In terms of fundamental value instead of market value, I don't think a brownstone priced a $2 million is that crazy. That implies a mortgage of a little over $8k; you can rent a brownstone floor through for $2k and there are 4 floors. Mortgages are very hard to come by these days but the fact that brownstones are still selling at these levels to me is telling ...
ReplyDeleteReynolds - I don't disagree that Harlem competes with Brooklyn to some extent. I would say three things: 1) To the extent these places attract "Wall Streeters" understand that most finance jobs are not downtown anymore so proximity to midtown is probably more important to most finance employees (on my block though we have a variety of brownstone owners - some old-time middle class residents, some doctors, some entrepreneurs, some Columbia professors). 2) The larger houses in Brooklyn with reasonable commutes to midtown and good public schools also cost significantly more than Harlem and 3) If somebody is not in a good public school district in Brooklyn they may be better off in South Harlem; Brooklyn private schools are actually a worse nightmare because there are so few. Brooklyn also lacks the diversity of parochial and G&T options, and lastly as kids move on to middle school/high school age the district starts to matter more than the zone and the district for South Harlem is the same as the Upper West Side.
I think that opinions of Chris being new to Harlem is valid because he does get it, it being the new Harlem that is slowly taking over, while some folks who have been here a long time do not get it and are watching the new Harlem slowly leave them behind.
ReplyDeletesaw this house. The owner has fantastic taste, amazing furnishings and a great look. The area is convenient to all the happening in that area. It seems a bit high considering need for kitchen baths, ac etc. But for a family of 5 or 6 or 7 teenage boys the place is immense and could be a remarkable home. I think it will sell at that price but nor for awhile. One word to the wise(agent), fix the front door.
ReplyDelete